Toal and Walsh

Maureen:

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

I can't tell if you are looking for more information on the family in the 1800s or present day descendants. Below is the civil birth record for Daniel and the 1892 civil marriage record for his parents which shows the names of the fathers of the bride and groom. You will have to sign-in to see the records.Roger McDonnell

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

Thank you so much!  I know my all the information on my Grandfather and his parents once they came to America and lived in NY and NJ with my Mom. I am looking for my Great Gramdfathers (Toal) and Great Gradmothers (Walsh) family in Ireland. Their parents and siblings that stayed there or moved somewhere else. Thank you so much!  This is a great start as I only have my great grandparents name and then the trail stops. 

I suspect this may be James Toal’s father in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Toome_Upper/Toome/942214/

The name Toal remains common in the Toome area today. The family farm is in Griffiths Valuation as plots 9 & 10 a total of just over 6 acres. There is a way of finding exactly where the farm was located, but to do that you would need to look up the Griffiths maps in Ballymena Library (upstairs in the local studies section), as the on-line maps don’t show it.

This looks to be Catharine’s father and family in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballyscullion/Grange_Park/941395/

(In addition to the address matching that on the marriage cert, one of the witnesses to the 1892 marriage was Rose Walsh, and there’s a Toal child lodging with the family).

1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ballyscullion/Grange_Park/124609/

Curiously, wife Mary’s place of birth has changed between 1901 and 1911 from Co. Antrim to America.

Francis died around 1915 (according to the Valuation Revision records) and son David took over the farm. There were still Walsh’s farming in Grange Park in 1945:

Walsh David of Grange Park county Antrim farmer died 31 May 1945 Probate Belfast 4 December to Daniel Walsh farmer. Effects £386 10s.

(Above information from the PRONI wills site. The full will is in PRONI in Belfast in paper format).

The farm was close to Grange Rd and to Cross Keys Rd, close to Ballyscullion Church of Ireland. It appears in Griffiths Valuation as plots 15 & 16, a total of 14 acres. Again the exact location isn’t shown on the on-line maps but you can get it from Ballymena Library local studies section.

I don’t see any Walsh households listed in Grange Park in the current phone book, but that’s not conclusive since so many people aren’t listed these days. If you enquire in the Cross Keys Inn or around Millquarter, you should be able to find out if there are any there today.

If looking for Gravestones for the Walsh’s, start with Ballyscullion graveyard on Loughbeg Rd but the family might have used Moneyglass Chapel, just outside Toome. The Toals might also have attended that chapel but they might also have used Cargin, on the Staffordstown Rd. It has a graveyard too.

My cousin is coming over to Ireland this summer and staying in that area so I forward this info to her to look up the maps and cemeteries. Again, thank you so much!!  Anything you find I'd love to see. I know our Toal family went to Scotland around 1901 , then came to America in 1924-27. If I can help fill in any info for them from Scotland on I'm happy to do so. Not sure if organizations track this or just family members like me.   If you find anything else please send it my way!!  Maureen

Just spoke with my Mom. She remembers her Mom telling her a story about a young Toal being sent to live wi the Walsh family. She has also told me in the past about someone coming to America before our family came, having a child and returning to Ireland. She is trying to remember more details but I think you are on the right track!!!

Maureen,

I looked for the birth of the Owen Toal, who appears aged 7 in the 1901 census for Grange Park. There’s only 1 suitable event. He was born 7.5.1893 in Toome to James Toal, labourer, and Catherine Walsh.

I live in the Toome area and if your cousin wants any guidance when she’s over, tell her to contact me on: Ahoghill@irelandxo.com

I will forward the info to her. I have Owen and David born on same date, but never hear my from my grandfather that he had twin brothers. I know David was 7 in 1901 Scotland census from James Toal  (actually listed on ancestry.com) as Toil, but corrected.  BUT, I also have Owen Toal, 7yrs old, livening with Walsh family in 1901 Ireland census. 

I have a follow up question from  this info you gave me......   

"I suspect this may be James Toal’s father in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Toome_Upper/Toome/942214/"

If this is James Toals father Francis listed as Father in law, and Mary as head of household, who was she married to??A brother of James?  I also noticed a Owen as listed as witness on marrige lic.  

Sorry, I am new at this and keeping everything strait is hard.  lol

Thanks

Can you send me the link to Owens birth?  Also, then who would David be?  I have him 7 yrs old on James census 1901 in Scotland but no Owen

Maureen,

Owen Toal wasn’t a twin. He was born 7.5.1893 in Toome. His brother David was born 30.3.1894 at 44 Ship St, Belfast. You can view both these births on this site:

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

(Click on civil records).

If your mother doesn't recall a David in the fmamily, then perhaps he died? Have you searched for a death for him?

The Mary Toal in the 1901 census was Mary Ann McCormick who was married to Daniel Toal. So apparently a brother to James Toal who married Catherine Walsh in 1893.

You enquired in another post about information on when the family moved to Scotland. There are no passenger records for ferries to Scotland. Scotland is only 13 miles from Ireland at the closest point and it was (and still is) just a short domestic ferry taking a few hours. No passenger records exist for that type of voyage. And people went back and forth all the time, as they still do. The beauty of working in somewhere like Scotland was that you could come home for the weekend, for a wedding or whatever. Large numbers of Irish people from Ulster went to Scotland. Many then went on the USA and elsewhere. It’s called stepped migration.

Thank You!! You have been so helpful.  A family member solved the mystery of why Owen stayed behind.  He refused to go!! lol  He later did come to America after my familly moved here from Scotland.  Owen and David are well documented in America and remembered by others in the family.  My mom just didn't.  I believe it was you who said there was a Toal betting store in the village.  If you ever go in, maybe you could ask about these names.  My mom said my grandfather was a book maker in Scotland but only tried it once in America as it was illegal.  Wonder if it was a family trade passed down.  lol

maureen

Hi, 

I am looking for the record of Daniel Walsh (1826-1913) and Mary, (birth 1836 abt) marriage.  The 1911 census has them being married 42 yrs at that time. So, the date should be 1869 abt.  I am hoping to find Daniel Walsh parents or family on that, as well as Mary's maiden name.  

Also, my mom told me it was tradition to name the first son after the fathers father and the second after the mothers father.  Is that a tradition that was closly followed by the Irish?

Hi,

I am also looking for more information and documents on

James Toal father, Francis and his wife.  Maybe a birth record for James, marriage record for Francis.  

and the same for Catherine Walsh father Daniel and wife.  Maybe a birth record for Catherine or marrige record for Daniel.

I tried but had no luck.  

Thanks 

Maureen

Daniel Walsh married Mary Quinn. I got that from the birth of their son Daniel Welch (spelling) who was born at Grange Park on 20.9.1870. You can view that on the irishgenealogy site.

I looked for their marriage but did not find it in Ireland. Perhaps they married in the USA?

The Irish and the Scots did follow the same naming pattern but I wouldn’t rely on it too heavily as many things can skew it. The tradition followed these

rules:

The 1st son was usually named after the father's father

  The 2nd son was usually named after the mother's father

   The 3rd son was usually named after the father

    The 4th son was usually named after the father's eldest brother

     The 5th son was usually named after the mother's eldest brother

 The 1st daughter was usually named after the mother's mother

  The 2nd daughter was usually named after the father's mother

   The 3rd daughter was usually named after the mother

    The 4th daughter was usually named after the mother's eldest sister

     The 5th daughter was usually named after the father's eldest sister

The problem with relying too heavily on naming patterns is that, apart from the fact that not all families followed it, there are lots of things that can upset it. Common ones that I have encountered are:

1. when the father and either of the grandparents have the same name. So you obviously can’t really have two or even three sons all with the same name, so a different name is needed (though some families did actually use the same name again, but differentiated with another more informal name. So if you had two Georges (as per birth certs) you just called one of them something else eg Simon;
2. if a child dies young, then it was common practice to re-use the name for the next birth. And if you don’t know about the death, your analysis of who they were named after could be completely wrong;
3. Or if a close relative had just died and their name was used out of respect.
4. I have also noticed that many families liked to name the odd child after the local Minister/Priest, schoolteacher or a relative with no children of their own.
5. Sometimes people were christened with one name, but went by a different one (and would appear in censuses and other records by that alternative name).

So for all these reasons, whilst tradition says, for example, that the 4th son was named after the father's eldest brother, it isn’t always so.

I suspect that Francis’s marriage, James & Kathleen’s births etc are all before the start of statutory registration in 1864.  You could search the Duneane parish records on Ancestry or the NLI site to see if you can find them there. 

Thank you so much for the information on Daniel Walsh wife and the traditionals of naming children.

I found James Toal death record in an online data base in Queens NY, where he died and was buried, in St. John cemetery.  All the names and addresses match so I know it to be him.  My Toal family here all followed each other to America and knew each other as adults so I have family accounts as well.  They knew James fathers name but none of Aunts of Uncles knew Francis (1874-1937) wife name (James Toal mother)

I FOUND IT!!!  It is listed on his death record as Rose Kerrigan, born in Ireland!!!  I also think this to be here because if I recall correctly a Rose Toal was listed as a witness on James Toal and Catherine Walsh marriage record too.  

I'll look for both spouse names now!!! So excited to find it!!!!

Again, any document anyone comes arcross please post.

Thank you!!

Maureen

This is James and Catherine Toal, we think after they moved to Scotland from Ireland but could be before. 

This is Catherine Toal, older, with some of her kids and grandchildren in Queens, NY.  

If I am asking too many questions please let me know, but I've come up with a problems from the 1901 and 1911 census and who to attach Mary Quinn to......

1901 Census is for 19 Grande Park and list

Daniel Walsh 68, Mary 63, David 28, Mary 24, Rose 23, Owen Toal 7.  It has a picture of what I assume is someone in the family writing it down.  I know this one to be our family because of Owne Toal.

1911 Census (10 yrs later) is for 19 Grange Park and list 

Daniel Walsh as 85, Mary Walsh 75, David Walsh 41, Mary Ann, Sarah 30, Daniel 3, 

So, I think these are related but now the same the David Walsh birth you referenced for Daniels wife name would acturally be for the David Walsh 41, of the 1911 cencus that counld't be the David Walsh 28, of the 1901 census.  

Do I have that right?  So Mary Quinn married a Walsh, just not my Walsh?

Do you have records for a Daniel Walsh (Welsh) born 1873?

Thanks Again!

Ages were out all the time in the censuses and on death and marriage certificates. In the 1800s and early 1900s in Ireland people didn’t celebrate birthdays and often didn’t know exactly how old they were. Their ages are often just guesses.

The David Walsh in the 1911 census gives his age as 41. That was pretty accurate. He was born at Grange Park on 20.9.1870 to Daniel Walsh and Mary Quin(n). He’s the same person who appears in the 1901 census aged 25. The age is just out by 6 years that’s all. That was fairly common in those days, as is evidenced by other members of the same family.

David Walsh married Sarah Drain.

Daniel Walsh married Mary Quinn around 1869. They had 6 children of which 4 were still alive in 1911.

Rose Walsh was born 29.11.1875; Mary Anne was born 10.7.1874. Parents Daniel Walsh & Mary Quinn. You can view the certificates on this link:

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

Rose Walsh married William Martin a labourer from Gillistown, on 16.4.1903 at Moneyglass Chapel, Toome. I don’t see them in the 1911 census so suspect they left Ireland soon after they married.

Other children to Daniel Walsh & Mary Quinn:

Henry 27.8.1869

Catherine 8.12.1871

The picture of the census that you refer to is the original paper entry completed and signed by Daniel Walsh, and which has then been computerized to make it easier to find and read. In 1901 Daniel completed and signed the census return himself. In 1911 he got the enumerator to complete it and then just signed it.

Hi,

I want to thank you all as you have been so helpfu!!  I was able to find  all my great grandfathers siblings and who they married.  I STILL have not been able to get past his parents Francis Toal and Rose Kerrigan.

My great grandfather James siblings

Daniel Toal 1851-1858 died as child

John J Toal 1856-1914  Married Sarah Jame O'Hara and moved to America 

Daniel Francis Toal 1858- ? Married Mary Ann McCormick 1874-1905.   She died in child birth and he married again Kate Gribbon 1873-?   BECAUSE of your help I have been able to connect with two of his sons families that came to America too.  The family story thought his father was Daniel.  All records I and they found online say Francis.

Alice Toal 1864-? married Joh McCorrie

Catherine (Kate) Toal 1866-1904   married Luke Barry.  They moved to Scotland.  I have recently connected to her family and they use to come to Ameican to visit my grandfather and brothers.  

Rose Toal 1868-1902 married George Gribben.  They moved to Scotland 

Mary Ann Toal 1851-1858 married Bernard O'Boyle.  They stayed in Antrim.

So first, let me thank you.  Not only have I found records for all the family but reconnected with family that my great aunts and uncles still stayed in touch with but my mom didn't know.  

Now,...I have some follow up questions I need help with

1. 1911 Census Francis Gribben and Henry Berry are living as Orphans with Francis Toal (HOF) and Sarah Toal wife, age 56.  I don't know who this Francis Toal and Sarah Toal are.  Best I can tell Francis is not a sibling of Rose Toal Gribben or Kate Toal Barry, whose children these are after their moms died.  Can you help me figure out who they are?  It might hold the key to who Francis father and mother are.

2.  The 1841/1851 cesus tha mentions Toals and Kerrigans has been more confusing to me.  I think another Toal and Kerrigan from the same families may have married as the dates as well as names don't really match up.  Otherwise, it supports an close relation marrige.  Any insight would be great.  

3.. Any other information you can source or think of where else I should look would be great

Another clue from family is that my mom's cousin went back to Ireland with his grandma Alice Toal, James daughter, to visit family.  He said they went to vistit Aunt Mary and Uncle Arther at a hotel/taverin they owned.  He was a child at the time 

4.  I have many of the children of my great aunts and uncles listed above in my tree on ancestry.  York (O'Neill) family tree  If it makes in easier for you to help me please take a look.

Thank you so much!

Maureen

Maureen,

I think you may struggle to get back much earlier than Francis Toal b c 1830. The records you need probably don’t exist.

I presume this is Frances & Sara in 1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Toome/Brecart/125074/

You say that you don’t think Rose is Francis’s brother. I suspect he is her brother. (They both appear to have fathers named Francis anyway).

I looked up the birth of Francis Gribben, born in Motherwell. He was born on 6.12.1896 to George Gribben and Rose Toal who had married on 29.4.1887 in Duneane. (Scottish birth certificates helpfully record where and when the parents married). Rose died in Motherwell in 1902 aged 34. The 1887 marriage certificate tells us that Rose’s father was Frances Toal, fisherman. She was from Toome. Rose was born 1859 according to her marriage certificate.  Rose’s marriage:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10799/5938303.pdfc

Francis’s marriage to Sarah McCormick which confirms his father’s name was also Francis:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11071/8050744.pdf

The only Toals I can see in the 1841/1851 census extracts were:

Mary Anne Toal who applied for a pension in 1916 (suggesting a birth c 1846). Her parents were John & Eliza Toal from Culnafay. 6 miles from Toome.

Thomas Kerrigan who applied in 1920 (suggesting a birth c 1850). His parents were James Kerrigan & Rose Toal and they lived in Taylorstown or Kilnock. Both of which are about 4 or 5 miles from Toome. The clerk reported finding James & Rose in Kilnock but not a son Thomas. However the subsequent entry does record Thomas so perhaps a mistake was made.

Sarah Kerrigan (married name McQuade) who applied in 1921. Same parents as Thomas above.  Her townland in 1851 was Kilnock and the enumerator found a census entry for that with Agnes, Bernard, Mary, William, Rose, Thomas &  Lizzie. Presumably all siblings. So this James & Rose must have married in 1841 or earlier. So they’d likely be born 1810 – 1820 or thereabouts.

I can add another Toal census extract taken from Josephine Masterson’s book on Northern Irish census extracts. Some census extracts are held in PRONI and are not included on the nli website (which was compiled from those held in Dublin). However they are in Mastersons’ book.

This is from the 1851 census and lists Bernard Toal head married 1820, wife Bridget Graham, James 19, Biddy 16, Rose Kerrigan (grand-daughter) 6. Absent on census night were Bernard 24 son, Mary 20, daughter. Deceased since 1841 were John aged 26. No date of death. The family lived in Duneane.

Bernard Toal is the only Toal farming in Duneane in the tithes in 1833. He could be related to Francis (b c 1830) but he doesn’t appear to be his father because he isn’t mentioned in the census extract. Plus Bernard doesn’t appear to be a family name in your particular tree. Hard to piece together at this distance.

If you are going to PRONI you could look up the O’Neill estate records. The land around Toome was owned by the O’Neills of Shane’s Castle. Their farming tenants estate books for 1829 & 1831 have survived (T1024/1 & T 1024/2 in PRONI). Those books show who was farming each farm, and also what lease they held. Many of the farmers held leases granted in the 1790s for 3 lives, so if the Toals were amongst them you might get a snapshot of who was there in the 1790s. Worth checking. (The rest of the O’Neill estate records were lost when their castle burned down in a fire in 1822).

Hi Elwyn,

Thank you for your help with this

Regarding Francis being the brother of Rose, she did not have a brother named Francis that I know of.  She did have a brother named Daniel Frances but not married to a Sarah.  Did you find a birth record for the Francis in the census above?  Maybe I missed a sibling.  I have Daniel Francis Toal married to Mary Ann McCormick Jan 7 1893.  She died in 1905.  Then he went on to marry Kate Gribben.  Grandaughter Bridget Gribben (Rose daughter) present at my Great Great grandfathers Francis Toal (married to Rose Kerrigan) death in 1908.  So, Rose married a Gribben and her brothers second wife was a Gribben too. I don't thing they had any children together.  You can find Kate Gribben in the 1911 census living with her step kids.   I see Francis Toals marrige to Sarah McCormick but that was in 1879, much earlier then would be correct if that Francis was a brother to Rose.  Maybe an uncle? One of the issues I'm running into is only finding records in the 1841/1851 census on Bernard Toal.  

I did discover an fact that links Henry Toal married to Marie Battles (m July 15, 1895) to our family.  Their son Dominick born July 13, 1902 moved to America after my great uncle Frank (Francis) Toal did.  They were friends here and traveled back to Scotland and Ireland to visit family together.  One of my older cousins here who grew up around them remembers him as a cousin of Franks.  So, I'm following that lead to help straighten the lines out.  Henry Toal parents were Bernard Toal and Rose Quin (Quinn).  

This is difficult to sort out but it makes me smile thinking about all these families with same surnames marrying each other and using the same first names and trying to keep everyone straight.  lol

Regarding the O'Neill estate records, are they online? Sorry I get confused with the different sites.

I would RELLY like to see them, not only for the Toal but for my fathers side.  My dad Michael O'Neill was born in Greenock Scotland/Port Glasgow, his dad Michael, his dad William O'Neill (1872-1960) were too.  Williams dad, Thomas O'Neill (1832-1871) was born in Ireland but came to Scotland and married Margaret Haggerty. Think I have asked about them on another thread.  Now that I know about Shane Castle, I'd like to see if Thomas O'Neill (1832-1871), father Thomas who died before 1871 is listed anywhere.  I have yet to connect him to family in Ireland but I know it was Thomas O'Neill that took his family to Scotland where son married Margaret Haggerty.

Again, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! I really don't think I'd be this far without all of you

Maureen

Maureen,

You are not convinced that Francis & Rose are brother and sister? Fair enough, but that rather raises the question of why was the man in the census looking after Rose’s child after her death? They share the same father’s name and both came from Toome. I am sure they are related somehow. I can’t find a baptism for any Francis Toal c 1855 so I don’t know who his mother was. There do appear to have been 2 Francis Toals living there in the 1850s. The other one was married to Catherine McKiernan. So perhaps that’s who this is. They had a son Daniel baptised 29.9.1858. That’s the only child I can find.

The Irish (and Scottish) naming pattern does tend to ensure that the same names get repeated endlessly in each generation. If a couple have say 4 sons, then those 4 sons will use the same names for all their children, as will, in turn, those children. So after a few generations you can have dozens of people with the same name. It can be confusing. In some places they use nicknames to tell them apart, eg “red hair” or “postman” etc.

Regarding the O’Neill estate records, they are not on-line. They are a pair of paper ledgers. You have to go into PRONI in person to look them up. (Take photo id for your fist visit, to get a reader’s card).

Hi, I am Waslh from Moneyglass. My Father was David Walsh and my Grandfather was Daniel Walsh