Crozier family

Brian,

Statutory birth registration only started in Ireland in 1864, so you won’t find a birth certificate. Prior to that you need to rely on church baptism records, where they survive.  You don’t say what denomination Elizabeth was but from the fact she married in the Church of Ireland, I’d assume that she was COI.

There’s about 12 John Croziers listed as farmers in Griffiths Valuation of Fermanagh in 1862, living in about 8 different parishes. If you have no other leads, you could go through the relevant Church of Ireland parish records to see if you can find Elizabeth’s baptism.

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch

The churches usually hold the originals but there are also copies in PRONI, the public record office, in Belfast. Their copies are not on-line and so a personal visit is required to access them. If you are unable to go there yourself, you may need to employ a researcher.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/guide_to_church_records.pdf

Thanks Elwyn,

When Elizabeth married she was living in Belfast. All I have to go is the 1901 and 1911 census returns. On both she gives her place of birth as County Fermanagh...with no other details.On the 1911 census she says she is a member of the Church of Ireland. Her marriage certificate says her father John is a farmer. Using all available source documents I estimate her birth is in the six month period between 30 June 1863 and the start of official records on 1 Jan 1864. I am in Melbourne Australia so will need to get someone to visit PRONI for me....

thanks,

Brian.

I may have found my great grandmother Elizabeth Crozier...after years of searching....but need to have the following confirmed.

I believe she was born in 1859/1860, definitely in Fermanagh, and her father John was a farmer.

There was an Elizabeth Crozier born 11 Dec 1860, baptised 10 March 1861 in Irvinestown & Pettigoe Presbyterian church; father John and mother Elizabeth Gilmore. A sister Sarah Anne appears to have been born 6 May 1867, baptised 15 Sept 1867 to the same parents.

The PRONI reference is MIC/1P/66/1.

As I am in Melbourne, Australia I would be very grateful if someone could verify this as correct or otherwise.

Brian.

Brian,

I can't help you with the PRONI look up. However Sarah Anne’s birth is after 1864 (when statutory birth registration started) so you can get a birth certificate for her. Her birth was registered in Irvinestown. I don’t see any other children born to this couple after 1864 so she may have been the last.

Likely marriage for the parents John Crozier to Eliza Gilmour, 6.2.1849 registered in Omagh.

You can view the original certificates on-line on the GRONI website, using the “search registrations” option:

https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk

You will need to open an account and buy some credits. It costs £2.50 (sterling) to a view a certificate.

Let me know the townland (address) that the family were living in (from the 1867 birth cert) and I'll see what more I can find.

Many thanks Elwyn....I feel like I am at last getting somewhere, which is fantastic !

On the marriage record for 6 Feb 1849 John Crozier (25) says he is a farmer, as is his father John. Eliza Gilmour (22) says her father William is a farmer. The marriage is in Dromore Presbyterian church. Both addresses are difficult for me to read so I have uploaded the marriage record. I hope they make sense to you.

Sarah's 1867 birth record says their address is Gortin.Father John is described as a farmer.

If there is a way of proving that the Elizabeth Crozier born to this couple 11 Dec 1860 and baptised 10 March 1861 is of the same family then that would be perfect.

When Elizabeth Jane Crozier married Robert Hood on 19 May 1883 she was 22. Both census returns say she is from Fermanagh.

thanks again,

Brian.

The townland on the 1849 marriage cert that John gave looks to be Candy in the parish of Magheraculmoney. Unfortunately I can’t find a townland of that name in the parish. There is a Cady or it’s possibly an obsolete name. Eliza’s was Knockaraven in the parish of Dromore, Co Tyrone. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s parish. The church was a Presbyterian church so you would expect her to have been brought up a Presbyterian. (So Scottish origins, as you would expect with surname like Gilmour).

Dromore Presbyterian church only has baptism and marriage records from 1835 onwards so you may not be able to trace her baptism. However there are several Gilmour farms in the townland in Griffiths so you can probably trace her descendants forward if you wish.

There was a Christopher Crozier in Cady, in Griffiths so that may be John’s townland or origin. However, the townland that Sarah Crozier was born in is Gorteen. So we know John’s family had moved there. Griffiths for 1862 shows John Crozier there on plot 4 which was a farm of 20 acres & 3 roods. The revaluation records show him acquiring plots 7 & 8 – another 12 acres in 1876, then being replaced by James Beacom in 1887.  However it then goes back to John Crozier and then to William Crozier in 1897. So John may have died around that time. (Possible death you might want to look at was John Crozier 23.9.1893 aged 80, registered in Irvinestown).

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/proni

The 1901 & 1911 censuses show William and family:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Kesh/Gorteen/1354427/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Kesh/Gorteen/520471/

Probate abstract:

Crozier William of Gorteen Kesh county Fermanagh farmer died 16 July 1943 Probate Belfast 14 December to Albert Anderson justice of the peace and William Crozier farmer. Effects £282 1s.

The full file should be held in PRONI.

That farm today is a couple of miles south of Kesh village, near Castle Archdale.

You'll likely need to get a researcher to look up the 1860 and 1861 baptisms. Try Dromore Presbyterian church records at PRONI. (Or you could pay PRONI to do it, but they are quite expensive).

Elwyn - that is very helpful. I really appreciate that input. I will try to research those leads.

thanks !

Brian.

Elwyn - I have managed to follow up some of your leads and they have given me a lot more info on the Croziers...which is great. I would like your opinion on whether these findings prove that this is the family of my great grandmother Elizabeth Jane Crozier....to a high degree of certainty.

The Irvinestown Presbyterian church record shows an Elizabeth Crozier born to John Crozier and Eliza Gilmore on 11 Dec 1860. From her marriage, census and death records I know she was born in Fermanagh, her father John was a farmer and birth date was calculated by me between 29 Sept 1860 and 31 March 1861. So that all appears to fit.

From other records, including census returns, I think that John and Eliza also had a daughter Mary Jane around 1849 (who remained single and died 29 Nov 1920); a son William born around 1855 (who married Matilda Wilson in 1904, had 5 kids that I know of and died July 1943); and a daughter Sarah Anne born 6 May 1867 who was deaf and dumb, remained single and died Oct 1950.

I also found death records for both John (1893) and Eliza (1895)...although the estimation of their ages at death differs somewhat from their birthdates estimated from the marriage record.

I'm reasonably confident this is my great grandmother's family but would appreciate your views and any suggestions on further steps I could take to erase any doubt. I will then continue searching forward on the Croziers.

thanks & regards,

Brian,

I suppose the question to ask is how many families in Fermanagh are likely to be headed by a John & Eliza Gilmour and who had a daughter named Elizabeth born around 1861. And where John was a farmer.

I looked at the 1901 census for Fermanagh and there were about 6 John Croziers who were either Farmers or Farmer’s sons. None had a wife named Elizabeth, so it’s not that common a combination. I’d be about 85% certain you have the right family. If your own information gave you some of the other children that you have found, then that makes it even more likely.

Regarding the discrepancies about ages on the death certificates, I wouldn’t worry too much about that. The age on a death certificate was simply the informant’s best guess, and was often out by up to 10 years or more. If the death certificate showed that the deceased resided in Gorteen and was a farmer or farmer’s wife, then you know you have the right family (or at least the parents of Sarah Anne born there in 1867). There were only 3 houses in Gorteen, 2 occupied by Beacom families and one by Crozier, so that narrows things down easily enough).

There probably aren’t’ any other readily available records in Ireland that might shed any more light on the family, save the church records, and perhaps gravestones.  Sometimes you see inscriptions on gravestones that show their daughter in Australia or wherever erected them. A farmer is fairly likely to have had a gravestone. If the family aren’t in the Presbyterian churchyard, I’d try the Church of Ireland. Presbyterians were often buried there. (It was open to all).

Thanks Elwyn - your input is much appreciated.

regards,

Brian.

Dear Brian,

I also am a Melbournian!

I was intersested in finding your queries regarding your Crozier's and liked Elwyn's helpful comments.

My wife is a Crozier descended from John and Elizabeth Betty married in 1814 at Ardess and from Lisnarick Fermanagh.

But my post today might relate more to your family.  One branch of my wife's Crozier's migrated to NSW, and together with an on-line genealogical pal we have been trying to trace their descendants.  In that search I got a DC for an Ellen Reid nee Crozier whose parents were John Crozier, Farmer and Elizabeth Gilmour. Despite her DC stating that she was marreid at 39 at Windsor, NSW I  cannot find her marriage on the NSW BDM.  On checking on the Fermanagh Genealogical website I found an Ellen Crozier being  born on 12/12/1853 to a John and Elizabeth of Gorteen.  Sounds familiar?

What I want to know is this John the son of John and Elizabeth mentioned in the 1821 Census for Lisnarick, who at the time of the Census was 2, making his birth year 1819? How can I f ind out???

Warren Thomas

Ivanhoe, Victoria, AUSTRALIA