Can anyone help decipher the marriage record of Josephum Manning and Honoram Reidy 30 July 1857 at RC Kilcolman, Limerick?
Bill ComerfordSunday 4th Jun 2023, 03:18AM
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I will contact a volunteer who is more knowledgeable with Latin. My take is that they were married by Rev. Dominick McMahon, There were no impediments and the banns were read,
Castlemore Roscommon, IrelandXO Volunteer ☘
Roger asked me to look at this as well, although my Latin isn't all that great, but I agree with what he told you:
"Marriage joining [of] Joseph Manning and Honora Reidy under the care of [i.e. performed by] Rev'd. Dominic[k] McMahon, [there being] no canon law impediment intervening, and the banns having been read 2 times [? looks like that last word is in English, so I may be misreading it]. Witnesses John Noonan [? -- there seems to be only one "o" there, but I think that's the name] and Honora McGrath jointly [?]."
The "Josephum" and Honoram" are in the genitive case, meaning "of Joseph" and "of Honora". The names of the witnesses are in the nominative [subject] case, so it's Honora there.
In case you're interested in more info about the townland of Kilcolman, you can find it at this link:
There are actually now two adjoining townlands of that name, Kilcolman East and Kilcolman West. The above link is for Kilcolman East, but you'll see a link at that site for a separate page about Kilcolman West.
I looked in the Griffith's Valuation (mid-1800's) records for Kilcolman, to see whether these families were listed as tenants then. I found a McGrath holding a tenancy, and Rev. McMahon is himself also listed as a tenant, as you can see here:
I saw no Manning's or Reidy's, but you can see that there's a Martin Mangan on the same list with Rev. McMahon. Manning is not a Limerick name, but Mangan is, and the Irish form of Mangan, Ó Mongáin, might possibly have been anglicized as Manning at times, especially by someone not familiar with Irish, because as pronounced it might be heard as something close to Manning. Irish names were often anglicized in odd ways, because it can be hard for non-Irish-speakers to hear the sounds of Irish correctly. Just mentioning this in case the issue comes up in other records. If my guess is right, Martin Mangan might be the father of Joseph Manning.
Roger thanks for the referral and Kevin thanks for the detailed information.
I am trying to research my 2x Great grandparents Joseph Manning and Hanora Reidy. Most of the records I have for later generations reflect townlands of Ballyane, Briskagh, and Shanid. RC Shanagolden seemed to be the Manning Catholic parish. Google maps shows me these townlands are all bordering each other.
I have been working my way backwards from my known grandfather William Manning who although his 28 March 1905 birth record reflects home and place of birth Briscaugh (Briskagh), in the 1901 and 1911 census his parents (my great grandparents) Pat Manning and Hanorah Dillane and family including him are in Ballyane and all his siblings birth records reflect Ballyane. Patrick's mother Hanora (my 2x Great grandmother) is also on both census. From my research Patrick had an older brother James living in Briskagh also found in census.
Next while researching Patrick who married Anne (Hanorah) Dillane at RC Shanagolden 30 Nov 1899, Patrick's townland Ballyane and father's name Joseph. Digging deeper found the the birth record of Patrick 21 Jan 1871 parents Joseph Manning and Hanora Reidy and home Shanid. Patrick's baptism at RC Shanagolden 3 Feb 1871, Parents Josepho Manning and Hanora Reidy. I then found the birth and/or baptism records of five other children in the same time period and church or townland with parents Joseph Manning and Hanora Reidy. Ellen 1860, Joseph 1862, James 1864 Briskagh, William 1866 Shanid, Mortimer Shanid, Patrick Shanid. All six baptisms found at RC Shanagolden.
Bringing me to this point in my search - searching for more information (validation on the right track, marriage, birth) of my 2x Great grandparents Joseph Manning and Hanora Reidy. Kilcolman is new in my search, but looking at google maps not far from my search area. I was hoping the marriage record might have some other clues. For example was Joseph from a different RC Parish.
I do have another clue on Joseph mother which would be my 3x Great grandmother - on Joseph's son James, 28 Jan 1864 birth record, the informant is listed as Hanora Manning (grandmother). Three generations of Manning wives named Hanora, UGH!
I'm still a novice, but have appreciated all the assistance folks like yourselves are willing to provide.
After staring at the NLI original so many time I just now noticed in the space above Joseph Manning name is written "de Shanagolden". Making me more comfortable in believing this is my 2x great grandparents marriage since most records I have found for later generations of my Manning family refer to RC Shanagolden.
Additionally, there appears to be more than one Kilcolman townland in Limerick. From townlands.ie/limerick. I believe (not sure) the RC Church of Kilcolman is in the third, Kilcolman Civil Parish, Barony of Shanid.
- Kilcolman, Kilmeedy Civil Parish, Barony of Connello Upper, Co. Limerick 289 A, 3 R, 5 P
- Kilcolman (Cill Cholmáin) , Kilkeedy Civil Parish, Barony of Pubblebrien, Co. Limerick 219 A, 2 R, 37 P
- Kilcolman, Kilcolman Civil Parish, Barony of Shanid, Co. Limerick 135 A, 0 R, 4 P
- Kilcolman East (Cill Cholmáin Thoir) , Rathkeale Civil Parish, Barony of Connello Lower, Co. Limerick 447 A, 2 R, 29 P
- Kilcolman West (Cill Cholmáin Thiar) , Rathkeale Civil Parish, Barony of Connello Lower, Co. Limerick 246 A, 2 R, 2 P
You're right of course about the 5 Kilcolman townlands, Bill. I missed the first three in the list (I guess Kilcolman West and East just stuck out, so I focused on those). I looked at the pages for the other three at townlands.ie, and also those for Ballyane and Briskagh. There were no Manning's listed in any of those townlands, though there were some more Mangan's, and in Briskagh there was actually a Joseph Mangan, as you can see at this link:
That might be your Joseph Manning, if my surmise about the anglicization of Ó Mongáin in that area was correct.