McShanes in Aghadowey?

Patty,

I agree the parish is Aghadowey. The townland looks to be Culcrow which is actually in Agivey parish though just a few hundred yards from Aghadowey. Family were still there in 1885 when twins Sarah & Charles were born. Griffiths Valuation for 1858 lists a Hugh McShane in the townland. He had plot 3a which was a labourer’s cottage with 1 acre. Suspect that may have been Eliza’s home. I don’t see a Robert McShane in Griffiths Valuation, nor do I see a likely death 1864 – 1901. I suspect he may have died pre 1864 which will make him hard to trace.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02662/1981127.pdf

Hugh was a bachelor and died in 1877 aged 73. Perhaps Eliza’s uncle?

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1877/020534/7205619.pdf

I am not sure whether the Rose McShane death is necessarily your family. She’s the daughter of a farmer from Ballynian in Tamlaght O’Crilly whereas Eliza’s father Robert was a labourer. The informant at Rose’s death was Francis from Ballynian. Possibly her brother? This looks like him in 1875. His father was John (deceased):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11201/8104832.pdf

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Grove/Ballynian/1521681/

This looks like Eliza and some of her children in 1901, still in Culcrow:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Agivey/Culcrow/1516261/

1911:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Agivey/Culcrow/652154/

James McShane in Culcrow in 1831. Family was Presbyterian 4 males and 4 females.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1831/Londonderry/Coleraine/…

Elwyn, thank you for the quick response.  I had also read it as Culcrow, but was confused by the Parish listing as Aghadowey   However, Eliza’s husband, Samuel Savage, died in Culcrow some months before the twins were born posthumously.  So that makes sense.  My mother remembers her great-uncles Willie and Charlie, so they likely emigrated to Philadelphia also at some point.  Mom's Aunt Betty went with her mother (Mary Savage) to NI to visit at some point, so possibly returned with them.    

Is there any way I would be able to find out the name of Eliza’s mother?  Or not likely, since there wouldn’t be records prior to 1864.

Thanks again for your time and effort, the information you provided is helpful.

Patty

Patty,

Pre 1864 you have to rely on church baptism records to find someone’s birth, where they survive. Do you know what denomination the McShane family was? (Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church but in this case she married in a Register Office, so no clues there.).

There’s a death here for a Margaret McShane in Culcrow in 1874, aged 91.  Could be Eliza’s mother.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

Incidentally here’s the death of Rose McShane (spinster) in 1881 who is likely to be the witness that you mentioned before.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1881/06433/4848272.pdf

Mary McShane (spinster) aged 102, in 1900:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_retu…

At the time Eliza was married to Samuel Savage in 1864, she was only 18.  Could it be that the Margaret McShane, on the register, was Eliza's grandmother rather than her mother? 

Coincidentally at the bottom of the register page, the death of Martha Savage, age 7, is listed. The death took place in Macosquin, Samuel Savage’s parish at the time of their marriage.  Eliza and Samuel’s second child was named Martha and born in 1867.  Present at both deaths was Barbara McShane, although one lists her residence as Culcrow and the other as Miltown.  The same person?  I can’t find anything about her.

I think that the McShanes were likely Presbyterian.  Although, if Samuel Savage was also Presbyterian, why would the marriage not have taken place in a church?  I have little understanding of the realities of the time.

-Patty

Margaret could be Eliza’s grandmother. No way of determining easily. Ages need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Folk in Ireland didn’t celebrate birthdays in the 1800s and most ages were just guesses. With someone in their 70s or 80s an error of 10 years or more would be common.  So Margaret may not have been as old as her death certificate says.

Can’t say why they married in the Register Office. Often it’s a sign of mixed marriage. That was a way of marrying without offending one of the families, but that doesn’t appear to have been an issue here. Another explanation is if they were Brethren. Brethren don’t have anyone qualified to perform a marriage ceremony, and so marry in a Register Office. Many Presbyterians switched to Brethren in the 1850s and 1860s as a result of the religious revival in 1858/9. So that’s a possible explanation. (Some switched back again later). Or maybe they had fallen out of favour with their own churches and just decided to go for a civil ceremony. I can’t suggest any clear definite explanation.

This appears to be Martha’s birth certificate in 1867 in Curragh (which is also where she died):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03489/2282312.pdf

This might be Barbara McShane’s death in Coleraine workhouse in 1879, aged 80:

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06532/4882266.pdf

For Presbyterians in Aghadowey there are several churches. Aghadowey itself only has baptism records from 1855 (though the church has been there since the 1700s), Killaig has records from 1805 and Ringsend from 1871.  So lots of missing records. Copies of the surviving records are in PRONI. I don’t think they are on-line anywhere.

Thanks for providing the information as well as some background on the times.  I may need to plan on an in-person trip one day to research the PRONI records.  Although, I realize that I am likely at a dead-end with this line.  And there was no money in these families, so I guess no headstones to be found.

-Patty

Patty,

If you are unable to go to PRONI yourself, you could employ a researcher. Researchers in the area: http://sgni.net

I have asked a colleague who knows the area very well if she knows anything of the families. If I hear anything I will let you know.

I found a gravestone for a Savage of Culcrow in Ballylagan Reformed Presbyterian church graveyard:

In loving memory / of / Samuel Savage / Culcrow / died 21st December 1883 / aged 48 years / his daughter / Sarah Craig / died 2nd December 1908 / aged 37 years / his son Hugh / died 8th June 1903 / aged 37 years / Also Eliza / daughter of the above / Samuel Savage / died 24th August 1928 / aged 82 years

Not all gravestones and graveyards have been transcribed and so there might be others in the area. It’s true that poorer people often couldn’t afford a gravestone but you do see quite a few paid for by their descendants overseas: “Erected by their son Hugh, Sydney, Australia” etc.

I have information on Savage family and probably have notes on McShanes which I will have to check.

HI Elwyn,

Yes, this Samuel Savage is my great-great-grandfather.  Children were:

Hugh, Martha, Mary, Eliza, Samuel, James, Isabella, William, Margaret, Sarah & Charles

Mary, Isabella, William and maybe Charles all emigrated to Philadelphia.  My mother remembers her Aunt, Elizabeth Johnston, and Grandmother, Mary Savage, visiting family "Lizzie and Maggie" in Ireland.  I assume these are sisters Eliza and Margaret.   Anything else you can find about remaining family there, I would be happy to know.

One additional questions, of the sisters, there are middle names of Jamison, Boyd and Craig.  Could these be related family surnames?

I may hire someone, but would love to make the trip someday anyway.

Best,

Patty

Patty,

Regarding the middle names, Presbyterians often use surnames as middle names. Sometimes it could be the mother’s maiden name but other times it might just be someone the family respected. Local Minister, school teacher. Maybe a relative with no children (sort of keeping their name going). 

My colleague Aghadowey knows much more about the area and these families than I do, so for the moment I am going to leave it to her to see what additional information there is.

Sorry for the delay but can provide a bit more information on Savage connection (checked my files but don’t have much more about McShanes than what Elwyn has found already). To clear up some confusion from previous posts-

Milltown is in Culcrow, just as Meathpark is actually in the townland of Ballybrittain.

Savages were a mixture of Presbyterian & Reformed Presbyterian. Some attending Ballylaggan R.P. Church and other attending Aghadowey Presbyterian Church, Crossgar Presbyterian Church, etc. There are 2 Savage headstones in Ballylaggan but unfortunately few others.

Ballylaggan marriages would have taken place in the Registry Office but often the couple also had a religious service in the church. In these cases a newspaper announcement would have usually listed the place of ceremony as the church. Several Savages were Reformed ministers. Ballylaggan has excellent records (baptisms start late 1700s but early ones only give date of baptism, name of child & father’s name (residence & mother not recorded)- not sure when mother’s names became included but after 1860s at least- these records are not online.

Samuel Savage (d.1884) was baptised by the minister of Crossgar Presbyterian Church 17 Apr.1841. His parents were Samuel & Jane (possibly Jamieson- the Savages lived next to Jamiesons at Gills and the surname was used as a middle name for several Savage children). Isabella Boyd Savage named after Isabella Boyd wife of Paul Orr (think there was a family connection but can’t remember it exactly at the moment).  Charles Lynd Savage’s middle name came from the Lynds of Knockaduff but there’s no known family connection. The Ironmonger’s agent’s surname was Craig so that might be where Sarah’s name came from.

"I found a gravestone for a Savage of Culcrow in Ballylagan Reformed Presbyterian church graveyard: In loving memory / of / Samuel Savage / Culcrow / died 21st December 1883 / aged 48 years / his daughter / Sarah Craig / died 2nd December 1908 / aged 37 years / his son Hugh / died 8th June 1903 / aged 37 years / Also Eliza / daughter of the above / Samuel Savage / died 24th August 1928 / aged 82 years."

The above transcription is full of errors. The stone actually reads: In loving memory of Samuel Savage, Culcrow died 21st December 1884 aged 48 years. His daughter Sarah Craig died 2nd December 1902 aged 17 years his son Hugh died 27th June 1903 aged 37 years. Also Eliza wife of the above Samuel Savage died 24th August 1928 aged 82 years.

Jamiesons of Gills were also buried at Ballylaggan & family headstone says Nancy, daughter of William & Isabella, was the first person interred in the graveyard (1826).

Hope this is some help.

Thanks so much for the time and effort. This is very helpful.

Best,
Patty