SEARCHING FOR MCCONVILL/E DESCENDANTS

Lynne,

I had a look at the RC baptism & marriage records on Ancestry but did not find a marriage for Anthony or Sarah nor the baptisms of any children to parents of those names. This could be because the events pre-date RC church records. The records for Downpatrick start in 1851, Newry 1818, Tullyish 1833 and Rathfriland (which is in 2 parishes) are 1829 for Drumgath and 1834 for Drumballyroney. So probably only Newry has records for the period you need.

If you happen to know the townland(s) that your family lived in, I could search that way but otherwise it’s a bit of a needle in a haystack. Looking at the 1901 census for Co Down, there were 371 people named McConville and 160 named Hagan or O’Hagan (the O’ prefix is detachable and wasn’t always used, so the names are interchangeable). So common names and consequently hard to trace the right family, without more specific information.

Any idea when Anthony and Sarah died, when they were born and what his occupation was? If they died post 1864, we could search for possible deaths.

I located the baptism of one of the children right at the beginning of the available records in Drumgath Catholic Parish - Baptism of James McConvill (first name is a little unclear) on the 19th August 1829, parents Anthony McConvill and Sarah Hagan, sponsors (godparents) appear to be Bernard McConvill and Morgan McCann[?]

The NLI Parish registers website is acting up at the moment so cant post a link, but I've attached a screenshot - see below

EDITED : The NLI registers website back working correctly now - the baptism is second from the end on the right hand page - see this link

Building on Shane's discovery, I had a look at Griffiths Valuation for 1864 for the civil parish of Drumgath. There were about 70 McConville households listed, none headed by an Anthony or a Sarah though. Some McConvilles in Drumgath on this site:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170718060827/http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com:80/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/Mc/McConville.htm

The 1834 tithe applotment records list an Anthony in Drumgrenagh and another in Lurgancahone  (or it could be the same one with land in 2 townlands. Also a widow McConville in the same 2 townlands. That could be Sarah (if she were a widow).

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/down/tithe-applotment-books/drumgath-parish.php#.W_wboxSqCns

Was Anthony a farmer, do you know?

There was still a McConville family farming in Drumgreenagh in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Drumgath/Drumgreenagh/1249085/

Lurgancahone in 1834 is mistranscribed as Lurgancanty in 1901. 11 McConville households there then. That’ll take a bit of sorting out.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Drumgath/Lurgancanty/

I don’t see statutory deaths for either Anthony or Sarah post 1864 and suspect that both may have died before that.

1911 censuses for the 2 townlands:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Drumgath/Lurganca…

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Drumgath/Drumgree…

Thank you both for all those wonderful links and, yes, I certainly have more investigating to do (with only 8 weeks until we arrive in Dublin)!!!  I went back over the weekend and documented (and rechecked) all the 'official' information that I have collected over the years and hoped this might answer some of your questions.

According to info on his death register in 1896, Isaac was born in Rathfriland abt 1827.  This is debatable as when he died in 1896 his age was listed as 81, which would give his birthdate around 1815!!  Isaac and Mary McConvill were married on 29 April 1855 (Dromore Tullylish Parochial Ctholic Parish Registers 1844 - 1881).  Their witnesses were John and Betty McConvill.  They then arrived in Australia on 20 November 1855.  Passenger lists states that they are both from Armagh and Isaac's parents - Anthony and Sarah - noted as 'both dec'd' (so this was 1855).  Mary's parents are listed as Edward and Elizabeth McConville - father living in Armagh.  Also on board was another McConville family - this one comprises James (not my James), his wife Eleanor and infant daughter Mary.  James's parents are listed as James and Jane - again father living in Armagh.  Eleanor's parents are listed as Dan and Helen Rafferty - both living in Armagh.  This family of McConvilles settled in Queensland, whereas my family (the three boys) settled in Victoria.

James, as we have established with his Baptism register (Dromore Drumgath 1829 - 1881 - Catholic Parish Registers 1655 - 1915) was born around 19 August 1829.  His sponsors were Bernard McConvill and Margaret McCann(?) . James and Mary Ann McConville's marriage listed 21 July 1852 from Tullylish RC, Banbridge from Ulster Hist. Foundation transcipt.  Witnesses Hugh McCarton and Bella Collins.  Comment on the transcipt notes - names as they appear in Register Parish of Clare and Gilford Irish Marriage Records - Co. Antrim and Co Down.  So, it appears as soon as they were married they hopped on the James Brown and arrived in Australia 5 January 1853.  Their ages were listed as 19 and 20 respectively.  When James died on 8 March 1861, after being in Australia for only 8 years (yes, he became a publican), his death register notes that his father Anthony was a farmer in Drumgath, Co Down.  I would assume this info regarding their father is correct as the two brothers (Isaac and Anthony) were the informants.

The last brother that I am tracing is Anthony (my direct descendant).  Using his age on his death register in 1910 of 88 years, he could have been born around 1822. His arrival in Australia is a bit confusing as the Mermaid has his name as a passenger, but then a notation of 'not going'.  We know he was in Victoria on 23 February 1857 because he married Elizabeth McConvill.  Now, it turns out that Elizabeth could have been the same boat as Isaac and Mary in 1855, as there is an Elizabeth McConvill listed (with relatives on board) and the date ties in with the info on her death register.  Elizabeth's parents were John McConvill and Mary Anne McGuinness (Magennis)??  On Anthony's marriage and death register (21 August 1910) unfortunately his birthplace is just noted as Co Down.

If you wonderful researcher over there can establish any further ties / references for me over here in Perth, Western Australia, I would be most appreciative.

Many thanks for all the work that you have already put in for me.

Lynne Roberts

lfvroberts@gmail.com

Lynne,

Regarding ages on death certificates, they were often just the informant’s best guess. It wasn’t the custom to celebrate birthdays in Ireland in the 1800s and many people didn’t really know their age all that accurately.  When officialdom asked for an age or date of birth they often guessed or made a date up. For someone who died in their 70s or 80s, an age error of 10 years or more wouldn’t be uncommon. There was no documentation and information was simply taken on trust. So I wouldn’t worry about the apparent discrepancy in Isaac’s age on his death certificate.

Isaac was reportedly born in Rathfriland but said he was from Armagh on the passenger list. Rathfriland is in Co. Down so that doesn’t reconcile but perhaps Armagh was a mistake.

Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church. So the 2 McConville girls who married Isaac & James were probably from Tullylish parish. The boys they married were presumably from Drumgath. The 2 parishes are about 15 miles apart. That’s quite unusual. In those days, before the arrival of the bicycle in rural Ireland, you tended to marry the girl next door.

Your family appear to have lived in Drumgath RC parish (Rathfriland is in Drumgath). Drumgath baptism records start in 1829 and marriage records in 1837. So if you are looking for folk who were born or married in that parish before those dates, then sadly no records exist.

Statutory death registration only began in 1864 so there won’t be a death certificate for any of the family who died before that, including Anthony & Sarah. The RC church rarely kept burial records. However you are in luck because Drumgath did. They cover the years 1837 – 1880, and they contain the deceased’s townland. They are on the nli site. I had a quick look around 1850 and there are loads of McConville burials. I suggest you search them for Anthony or Sarah. They are on the nli website: registers.nli.ie/

Let me know if you find them. You would expect both to be in the same townland. If you do find them, I’ll see if I can identify the possible farm(s) in the townland.

There’s also the possibility of finding a gravestone. Farmers tended to be slightly better off and often could afford a gravestone. (The majority of the population could not and were usually buried without one). So you might want to search Drumgath churchyard for gravestones. The fact that your ancestors chose Australia may also be indicative of slightly better financial circumstances. Unless they had assisted passages, in general, it was much more expensive than the usual emigration destinations (America and England). Only about 5% of Irish emigrants chose Australia or New Zealand and they tended to be from families with a little more money.

Having said that RC parishes don’t normally keep burial records, there are also some for Tullylish covering the years 1844- 1881.  That’s quite unusual.

In general, tradition with Irish farms was for it to pass to the eldest son, leaving the rest of the sons to make their own way in the world, and the daughters to marry. (Subdividing the farms was not normally feasible as they weren’t that big in the first place, and it wasn't easy to acquire extra land. There was always a shortage of land in an overcrowded island. One of the many drivers behind Irish emigration in the 1800s. The population in 1840 was 8 million. It's still only 6 million today). So you might find that the eldest son took the farm after Anthony’s death.

Knowing that Anthony was a farmer increases the chance of one of the 2 Anthony entries in the Drumgath tithes being your family. The tithes only listed folk with land (ie mainly farmers). The vast majority of the population were labourers and weavers who didn’t have any land or at least not enough to merit an entry in the tithes. So, unless you get any leads from the burial records, I’d be inclined to focus on those two townlands. Your problem will be that the names are very common in that area, and the average family in Ireland won’t be able to trace their roots back to the mid 1800s. (Most know about 3 generations back and then it gets a bit hazy).

There were 35 houses in Drumgreenagh and 45 in Lurgancanty in 1911. There will be quite a few more than that today.

Good luck anyway.

Hi Elwyn from a very sunny Perth, Western Australia.

OK, after your advice and very detailed explanation (thank you so much for that, I knew some things, but not others), I spent yesterday and all of this afternoon flooding a spreadsheet with ALL the McConvills in the NLI register for Drumgath (funerals only) and I have come up with a couple of possibilities I would like to run past you.  In 1838 there are two Mrs McConvill funerals.  The first was held 9 March and she was from Drumlough, the second was held 4 April and she was from Drumgreenagh.  Then, the only Anthony I could find was buried on 1 January 1842 and he was from Lurgan (do I presume this is a short abbreviation of Lurgancahone) or is there another Lurgan??

The one thing that I have learnt from sitting here with Ros Davies' parish map of Drumgath is where the parishes were and how to spell them.  Do I also assume that because they are entered as Mrs that their husbands were still alive................. I have noticed that in some registers Widow is mentioned.

Look forward to hearing back from you.

Lynne Roberts

Lynne,

Drumgath is quite a small parish, with only 12 townlands in it.  Only two begin with the letter L – Lissize and Lurgancahone. I would therefore be pretty confident that the Lurgan in the burial register is Lurgancahone.

I think if the priests in Drumgath were using the terms Mrs and Widow then probably a Mrs would be  a woman with a husband still alive.

Looking at Griffiths Valuation for Lurgancahone in 1864 is a bit of a nightmare. There are 18 McConville entries. We can eliminate a few of them as being unlikely to be your family, but that leaves a lot left.

Something to know about Griffiths is that the clerks used nicknames (officially called an agnomen) when two or more people of the same name were in the same townland at the same time. And that happened a lot. Here’s a list of the McConvilles in Lurgancahone:

Patrick Plot 1  - 8 acres.    He had no house, so he didn’t lived in the townland. He lived somewhere nearby

Hugh  Plot 2 – 15 acre farm

Owen plot 4 No house, so he lived elsewhere

John plot 5. No house so he lived elsewhere agnomen Gernagh.

Daniel plot 6  - 7 acre farm

Patrick plot 7 - 14 acre farm

Patrick plot 10 – 16 acre farm. Agnomen fairy.

Dominick plot 12 – 14 acre farm

Peter plot 15 – 7 acre farm

Patrick plot 19 – 9 acre farm. Agnomen Ned.

Neal plot 20 – 21 acre farm

Edward plot 21 – 15 acre farm

John plot 22 – 7 acre farm. Agnomen Art

Arthur plot 23 – 8 acre farm Agnomen Art.

John plot 25 – 13 acre farm. Agnomen Butt

Margaret plot 29 – 3 acre farm. Probably a widow.

John plot 31, 13 acre farm and flax mill. Agnomen Baroge

Anne plot 34 – 9 acre farm (probably a widow)

Arthur plot 35 – 11 ace farm Agnomen Hill.

You can knock out one of two because they didn’t live in the townland or because they didn’t have a farm but that still 15 households, all within half a mile of each other. Sometimes you can go to the tithes and compare the size of the land in that assessment with the land in Griffiths and if 2 match, then you probably know who had what farm. (The Griffiths maps show where the properties were, so that enables you to locate the place today). But with 15 pretty similarly sized farms to compare it’d be a complex task. And of course the farms didn’t always remain the same size. Farmers were always acquiring or selling bits of their farms.

Drumlough has 5 McConville homes in Griffiths:

Peter, John (not a farm), Edmund (not a farm), Edward & Michael.

Drumgreenagh has 12: Hugh, Patrick (agnomen carpenter), Edward, Patrick (agnomen Colin), Patrick, Mary (no farm), John, Patrick (agnomen Knock), Daniel, Alice (no farm), Catherine (no farm) & Colin.

You’ll see that there were 35 McConville households in those 3 townlands alone. Not all were farmers, but I still can’t see an easy way of identifying which one was where Anthony & Sarah lived.

Morning Elwyn

After reading your very comprehensive reply to my query I feel this is where I simply have to stand back and throw my hands up in the air and declare: 'It's all too hard!!!'  Of course, into the Griffith's Valuation equation also comes the question of when Anthony actually accurately exited this planet.......... and who inherited the property when this happened, i.e. as you said, to the eldest son, but, I have no idea who that was.

So, for now, I think I will just sit back and enjoy the experience of Ireland as a whole with my daughter (only 7 weeks until we arrive).  Yes, we will meander through Drumgath and Tullylish and Rathfriland and then head across and down into the Republic and perhaps, next time, if I can establish, perhaps through DNA, any lost-lost cousins who may be able to provide more information, I may find some descendants in Ireland.

Many, many thanks for your help and expertise.  I just wish that I had been one of those wonderful success stories that often appear on Ireland Reaching Out.

Lynne.