Share This:

Will be in Armagh May 14 to 28. Seeking contact with NICKLE/NICHOL family living in Cladybeg in Kilcluney

I am hoping that I might meet with family members or genealogists in Armagh who can assist me with research on my g-g-grandfather.  If you can assist in any way, please contact me using the email address provided below. 

With assistance from the Ulster Historical Foundation, I have determined that my g-g-grandfather James Nickle/Nichol likely came from the townland of Cladybeg in the Parish of Kilcluney.   James was born in about 1822 and emigrated to Canada sometime between 1840 and 1855.  In 1855 in Canada he married Agnes BLACK who was born in County Down.  They eventually settled in Zone Township, Ontario, Canada and had a home in the nearby town named "Thamesville".   They had six children listed here by birth-order:  Alexander, George, Mary Jane, Samuel, James (who died while an infant), and Agnes.   Indications are that the father of my g-g-grandfather James NICKLE may have been an Alexander NICKLE who was married to a woman named Jane (maiden name unknown by myself).  This Alexander and Jane are listed as the parents of two couples married at the 2nd Newtownhamilton Presbyterian Church in the Parish of Newtownhamilton, South Armagh.  It is also possible that my g-g-grandfather James had the following siblings or cousins living in Cladybeg in Kilcluney:  another Alexander Nickle, born about 1836; Samuel Nickle born about 1842; William Nickle, dob unknown;  and another James Nickle, dob unknown.  

My lineage back to this James is as follows:

(1) myself, born 1940 in Calgary, Alberta, Canada

(2) my mother Agnes Alice Nickle, born 1917 in Los Angeles California but raised in Calgary

2) her father Samuel Clarence Nickle, born 1889 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA (his mother had come from Pennsylvania, and his parents moved there briefly following their marriage in Ontario in 1884).  This Samuel spent most of his adult years in Calgary, Alberta, Canada 

3) his father George Nickle, born 1861, born in Thamesville, Ontario, Canada.  Married Martha Janes Stanton in 1884 in Thamesville, Ontario, Canada..  This couple moved briefly to Philadelphia, where my grandfather Samuel was born.  The family then moved to various cities in the USA and Canada before finally settling in Calgary, Alberta, Canada 

4) his father James Nickle, born about 1822 in Armagh.    No information about his ancestry was passed to me by my parents or grandparents, excepting only the statement that he was born in Armagh.   (I have located much information about his wife Agnes BLACK and her siblings, but I have no strong proof as to where she was raised in County Down.  As far as I know, James and Agnes met one another in Canada ... but it is possible that they knew each other in Ireland.  I have no primary documents regarding the lives of James or Agnes while they lived with their respective families in Ireland.

I will attend the Armagh-Geneaology Conference in Armagh from May 17 to 19 2019 (at the Navan Centre).  Perhaps I will locate some assistance through this conference.  The balance of our time in Armagh and surrounding area from May 14 to 28 will be devoted to seeking information.

If you know of this family or you can assist me with research on this family when I am in Armagh, I would greatly appreciate hearing from you by email.  I would also welcome meeting with you when my wife and I are in Armagh.  A copy of the report from Ulster Historical Foundation is attached and I can share other documents and information that I have.    Thank you for any assistance you can offer.

Samuel William "Sam" AYLESWORTH, Calgary Alberta Canada

Email:  saylesworth@shaw.ca 

 

 

 

saylesworth

Tuesday 19th March 2019, 09:23PM

Attached Files

Message Board Replies

  • Dear Samuel:

    Many thanks for your informative post to the message board and welcome to Ireland Reaching Out.

    We have a volunteer who may be able to offer further guidance and assistance.  I will forward this post to him and he will reply to you in the next while.

    Have a wonderful trip over and please let us know how your research progresses.  If you have any further questions, please let us know via this thread.

    Kind regards,

    Jane

    Jane Halloran Ryan

    Wednesday 20th March 2019, 10:58AM
  • Hello Jane,

    Thank you for responding to me and for referring my enquiry to the volunteer.  I greatly look forward to hearing from him.

    Sam

    Sam Aylesworth, Calgary, Alberta, Canad

    saylesworth

    Wednesday 20th March 2019, 09:13PM
  • Building on my earlier posting, regarding James NICKLE/NICHOL:  I am also seeking information on AGNES BLACK, from County Down.   Agnes was the wife of James NICKLE/NICHOL; this couple were my great-great-granparents.  We know that Agnes and James  married in 1855 in Ontario Canada.   Agnes reported that she came from County Down.  I have located considerable information on the siblings of Agnes when they were in Canada, as summarized below.  However, I have not been able to locate any definitive information regarding their ancestry in Ireland nor detail as to the Parish or Townland in which they were born.   

    Attached is an inconclusive Research Report on Agnes BLACK completed for me in 2016 by the Ulster Historical Foundation.

    Following is a summary of my own findings regarding Agnes BLACK and her siblings in Canada:

    (A) Following is my transcription of the handwritten marriage certificate of Agnes Black and James Nickle:

     

    ``I do hereby certify that on the sixteenth day of April in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and fifty-five James Nickle of the township of Dunfries and Agnes Black of Beverly were married by me Thomas Fawcett a Minister of the Wesleyan Methodist Church in Canada in the presence of George Black and Mary Ann Black which said marriage was solemnized by banns

     

     Witnyss my hand at St George

     April 16th a.d. 1855

      Thomas Fawcett

      Wesleyan Minister

     

     Witneyss

     James Black

     Mary ann Black´´

     

     

      Transcribed:  April 10, 2005  

      By Samuel William Aylesworth

      Great-great grandson of James & Agnes

     

     =================

     

    (B) The following obituary for Agnes (Black) Nickle was published in the Thamesville Herald on September 28, 1905:

     

     "Died, at Winnipeg on Friday, Sept 22, Agnes Nickle, relect of the late James Nickle, aged 74 years.  Deceased had been a resident of Zone for a number of years and only left a short time ago for Winnipeg on a visit to her daughters, Mrs. E.H. Moran and Miss Agnes Nickle.  The remains were brought here on Monday and conveyed to the residence of her sister, Mrs. Hardy, Ann street, from which place the funeral took place on Tuesday.  Services were conducted in St. James Presbyterian church by Rev. J. McInnes.  Internment in Sherman's cemetary."

     

     ==============

     

    (C) Searching for information on the parents and siblings of: Agnes Black, who married James Nickle, and Eliza Jane Black, her sister, who married Abraham Hardy. I located the following:

     

      (C1) The following notice of the history and death of Eliza Jane (Black) Hardy was published in the Thamesville Herald, Thamesville Ontario on January 19, 1922:

     

     "The death occured at the family residence, Ann street, this town, on Friday last, January 13, 1922, of Mrs. Eliza Jane Hardy, relict of the late Abraham Hardy, one of the pioneer residents of Thamesville, after an illness of one week, at the advanced age of 75 years.  Mrs. Hardy, whose maiden name was Eliza Jane Black, was born in the country of Down, Ireland, and came to Canada with other members of her family when 13 years old.  The family first settled at St. George [in the county of South Dumfries, Brant County, Ontario] and afterwards in Caradoc township [Middlesex County, Ontario], where she was married to Mr. Hardy in 1869.  After their marriage they took up their residence in Thamesville, where Mrs. Hardy has resided for fifty-three years.  Deceased was a member of St. James Presbyterian church.  The surviving members of the family are three sons and one daughter, viz. Messrs. Robert James, John Wesley and George and Mrs. Chas. McGaffey, all residing in Thamesville.  The funeral, which was largely attended by relatives and friends, took place on Monday afternoon of this week from the family residence, Ann street,  Rev. W. I. McLean conducting services at the home and at the graveside, interment being made in the Mayhew cemetery.  The pallbearers were Messrs. John Howat, John Vance, John Secord, D. J. MacPherson, M. Ruckle and Robert George.  Among those present at the funeral services were friends and relatives from Detroit, Mt. Brydges, Caradoc township, Rodney, Ekfrid and London."

     

     (C2) Building on this information, we requested that the Brant County Branch of OGS (Ontario Genealogical Society) obtain a copy of the death certificate for Eliza Jane (Black) Hardy, hoping it might indicate the names of her parents.  Instead, the OGS advised as follows:  

     

     "We have the death registration for Eliza Jane Hardy.  However, it does not help us as 

     the informant at the time of Eliza's death (being her son George Hardy) 

     apparently knew nothing of his family.  The space for "name of father" for Eliza only says "Black" born Ireland.  And the space for "name of mother" for Eliza has a line drawn through  it, indicating no information available.”

     

     Signed:   Heather Ibbotson, Brant County OGS, Brantford, Ontario

     

     (C3) Recently we made a request to the Government of Manitoba for the death certificate of Agnes Black, given that Agnes died there in 1905, while on a visit to her daughter’s home.  If new information is obtain about the family’s history, it will be added to the detailed records. 

      Sam Aylesworth  Aug 19, 2005

     

     =====

     

     (D) Regarding Mary Ann Black, who witnessed the marriage of Agnes Black and James Nickle, the critical questions are:

     1) Is this Mary Ann Black the same person who married John Powell Davies in 1858 in Paris, the County of Dumfries (see this database for the Davies family)

     We do note that Agnes Black herself  was married at St. George, Ontario, in the Township of Dumfries, in 1858. 

     2) If this is the same Mary Ann, what is her relationship to Agnes Black?  Were they sisters?  Cousins? 

     3) How is Mary Ann related to James Black and George Black, who also witnessed the marriage of Agnes Black & James Nickle?  Are they brothers? Is one her father? Are they cousins?  I do not know. 

     

     If Mary Ann Black is a sister, then she would also be a sister to Eliza Jane Black. 

     

     Written by: Sam Aylesworth, March 14, 2007 

     

     ============

     (E) At this time I am ASSUMING that this George Black is a brother of Agnes Black and Eliza Jane Black.  However, I do not currently have PROOF that this was so.

     

     What I do know about the person or persons named George Black is:

     a) A George Black is mentioned as a witness to the marriage of Agnes Black and James Nickle in 1855, as noted above (see their entries in this database)

     b) A Mary Ann Black is also mentioned as a witness to the marriage.

     c) The marriage of Agnes and James took place St. George, in the Twp of South Dumfries.

     d) In the 1851 Canadian Census of the Township of South Dumfries a George Black, age 19, and a Maryann Black, age 14, both from Ireland, are living with the Beemer family.  See page 23, lines 6 and 8.  [Two other Irish persons are also staying there:  David Mickle, age 29, and Mary McKundry, age 25.]  The Beemer Family were all born in Canada; they were Mthodists.   The four Irish are listed as Prebyterian (as was Agnes Black and her sister Eliza Jane Black).

     e) In the obituary for Eliza Jane Black it says:   "Mrs. Hardy, whose maiden name was Eliza Jane Black, was born in the country of Down, Ireland, and came to Canada with other members of her family when 13 years old.  The family first settled at St. George [in the county of South Dumfries, Brant County, Ontario] and afterwards in Caradoc township [Middlesex County, Ontario], where she was married to Mr. Hardy in 1869.  After their marriage they took up their residence in Thamesville, where Mrs. Hardy has resided for fifty-three years.  Deceased was a member of St. James Presbyterian church."

     f) A marriage record located for Brant County by the Brantford Office of Ontario Genealogical Society refers to the marriage of a George Black as follows:  George Black, 22, residence South Dumfries, born County Down, Ireland, son of Joseph and Jane [Black], married 22 September 1858 to Mary Ellis, 18, residence South Dumfries, born Dumfries, daugther of William and Hannah [Ellis]."     [This information was passed to me by email from OGS; I do not yet have a copy of this marriage record. SWA]

     g) The family of William and Hannah Ellis are listed in the 1851 Canadian Census of the Township of South Dumfries, page 19, lines 41 - 47.  A Mary Ellis is listed as a daugther, then aged about 12.

     h) A Mr. Jim Cobban from Ontario has been researching the Black family and has obtained the following detailed information about the George Black who married Mary Ann Ellis:

     - George Black was born on June 4, 1833 or 1834 in Ireland (his marriage record indicates in Ireland, in the County of Down)

     - he married Mary Ann Ellis, as noted above

     - the family lived for awhile in South Dumfries and then moved to the Township of Caradoc, in the County of Middlesex [just as Eliza Jane Black did. SWA]

     - George and Mary Ann has eight children, which I have listed in this database.

     - George died May 29th, 1912 on lot 18, conscession 1, Caradoc, Middlesex Ontario (Mr. Cobban has located the death certificate). 

     - As noted on his death certificate, his parents were JOSEPH and JANE BLACK.  [At this time, I do not know if the parents remained in Ireland or came to Canada.]

     - Mary Ann (Ellis) Black was born September 22, 1840 in Dumfries Towship, Ontario, and died August 16th, 1918 in J.R. Veales, Caradoc, Middlesex, Ontario

     

     So, regarding the George Black who married Mary Ann Ellis, the critical questions are:

     1) Is this George Black the same person who witnessed the marriage of Agnes Black and James Nickle in 1855 in the Township of Dumfries or Beverly?

     We do note that Agnes Black and James Nickle married at St. George, which is in South Dumfries.

     2) Is this George Black the same George Black who is listed in the 1851 Canadian Census for South Dumfries, alongwith Mary Ann Black. 

     3) If there is only one George Black here, what is his relationship to Agnes Black?  Were they brother and sister?  Cousins? 

     4) Similarly, what is the relationshp between George Black and Mary Ann Black?  Where they brother and sister? Cousins? 

     

     Similarly, regarding the Mary Ann Black who is listed in the Census in the same household as George Black:

     1) Is this Mary Ann the same person who witnessed the marriage of Agnes Black and James Nickle in 1855 in the Township of Dumfries or Beverly?

     We do note that Agnes Black and James Nickle married at St. George, which is in South Dumfires.

     2) If this is the same Mary Ann, what is her relationship to Agnes Black?  Were they sisters?  Cousins? 

     3) Is this Mary Ann Black the Mary Ann Black who married John Powell Davies in Paris, Ontario, in the Township of Dumfries, in 1858?. 

     4) If there is only one Mary Ann Black here, what is her relationship to James Black and George Black, who also witnessed the marriage of Agnes Black & James Nickle?  Are they brothers? Is one her father? Are they cousins?  I do not know. 

     

     Written by: Sam Aylesworth, March 14, 2007 

     

    (F) On August 8 2008, I located the marriage record for the marriage of Samuel BLACK, widower, to Agnes MENZIES.  This marriage record states that the parents of Samuel BLACK were Joseph BLACK and his wife Jane (maiden name UNKNOWN).  I had previously learned that the parents of George BLACK (who married Mary Ann ELLIS) were Joseph BLACK and his wife Jane.   

     

     Based on this information, I am now ASSUMING that Samuel BLACK was a brother of George BLACK, and thus a brother of Agnes BLACK, Mary Ann BLACK and Eliza Jane BLACK.   

     

     This note written by Sam Aylesworth, Aug 8, 2008.

     

     ==========

     

    Thank you for any assistance you  can offer regarding the ancestry and place of birth for my AGNES BLACK who married James NICKLE.

     

    Yours truly,

    Sam Aylesworth

    Calgary, Alberta, Canada

    Email:  saylesworth@shaw.ca

     

    saylesworth

    Wednesday 20th March 2019, 09:42PM

    Attached Files

  • Samuel,

    I found a few probate abstracts on the PRONI wills site relating to Nicholls from Clady Beg. Some look to be your family, and you may be interested in them.

    Letters of Administration of the personal estate of James Nicholl late of Cladybeg County Armagh Farmer deceased who died 7 September 1879 at same place were granted at Armagh to James Nicholl of Cladybeg Farmer a Son.

    Letters of Administration of the personal estate of Samuel David Nicholl late of Cladybeg County Armagh Farmer deceased who died 15 January 1881 at Broxborn Linlithgowshire Scotland were granted at Armagh to Sarah Jane Nicholl of Cladybeg aforesaid the Widow.

    Letters of Administration of the personal estate of John Nicholl formerly of 48 Lodge-lane Liverpool and late of Cladybeg County Armagh Grocer's Assistant who died 15 June 1891 at Warrington Lancashire in England were granted at Armagh to William Nicholl of Cladybeg Farmer the Father.

    The Will of William Nicholl (otherwise Nickle) late of Cladybeg County Armagh Farmer who died 22 August 1895 was proved at Armagh by Mark Cassells of Armaghbreague Farmer one of the Executors

    Probate of the Will of the late Alexander Nicholl, Cladybeg, Co. Armagh, Farmer, who died 6 July 1919, granted at Armagh 22 September 1919 to Jonathan Kernaghan, Farmer, the son-in-law and Alexander Nicholl, Farmer, the nephew. Effects: £1.

    Nicholl (senior) James of Cladybeg county Armagh farmer died 26 January 1931 Administration Belfast 9 March to Thomas Allen postman and farmer and Annie Nicholl married woman. Effects £5.

    Nicholl James of Cladybeg county Armagh farmer died 27 December 1942 Probate Belfast 15 November to John Monaghan and David Leeman farmers. Effects £191 10s.

    Nicholl Thomas of Cladybeg county Armagh farmer died 5 February 1947 Probate Belfast 29 April to Alexander Hogg grocer and William Cyril Nicholl farmer. Effects £386 5s.

    The first 3 all died intestate so there are no wills to read, the next two wills are on-line on the PRONI wills site and for the latter 3 there should be paper probate files in PRONI. (The 1931 file was intestate but the other 2 should have wills).

    These wills tell you there were Nicholls living in Clady Beg until 1947 at least. The 2 plots that the UHF identified (plots 126 & 129) today would be on the Armagh Rd, just north of Newtownhamilton. Probably postcode BT60. You can see where they are using the maps on the Griffiths Valuation website.

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSe...

     

    Regarding the Black family, I note from the UHF report that Jane married in a Methodist church in Canada. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church, and so you can probably assume the family were Methodist. I’ll explain a little about early Methodism in Ireland and how that relates to genealogical records here.

    Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. It was 1815 before Methodists agreed to conduct their own baptisms. However because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many continued to use the Church of Ireland for sacraments for years after this and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own baptisms.

    For marriages, the earliest ceremonies conducted by a Methodist Minister in Ireland that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers in Ireland (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So the shortage of Ministers contributed to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland. In addition, in the early years, many Methodist Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriages so that too contributed to couples marrying in the Church of Ireland.

    So to summarise, you are unlikely to find many Methodist baptisms before 1820. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are interested in, I would search the Church of Ireland instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event.

    Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

    The UHF report has covered the most obvious areas and I can’t see any lines of enquiry that seem likely to throw up significant new information. If the family were Church of Ireland/Early Methodists, then there’s a fair chance that the church records you need no longer exist. It’s hard to overcome that obstacle.

     

    I live some 70 miles from Armagh and it’s too far for me to be able to show you around the area myself,  but I do hope you enjoy your stay in the “Orchard County.”

    Elwyn

    Sunday 24th March 2019, 02:18PM