Thomas St John Dwyer and William Dwyer

Paula:

The subscription site FindMyPast has a July 6 1832 baptismal record for a Catherine Dwyer with father William Dwyer and mother Elizabeth St. John. The RC parish was Fethard. No other baptismal records showed up with those parental names. Was a Catherine listed in the 1851 census?

Roots Ireland (subscription site) had a baptismal record in St. Mary's Clonmel for a William Dwyer baptized August 25 1827 with father William and mother Ellen St. John.

Roger McDonnell

No Catherine on the 1851 census but it's still possible that could be right. Thomas St John was living in a lodging house in London with 14 other people including 5 from Tipperary, one of whom is James Dwyer, who could possibly be a brother or cousin. He was only 16 in 1851 so likely he would have gone to somewhere where he had a relative. 

The Roots Ireland one is possible too; the St John name has to come from somewhere and it could be Ellen and it could be Elizabeth. 

Thank you for your help. 

 

Attached Files

Hello Paula/Scarlett,

I found what may be Thomas Dwyer’s baptism transcription at the Find My Past (FMP) website showing his baptism took place in the St. Mary’s Clonmel Catholic Church on 6 January 1833. First names in the baptism are in the Latin form. For example, Thomas is recorded as, “Thomam.” His father William is recorded as “Gulielmi,” and his mother as “Helena.” Her maiden name is “McJohn.”

I’m not sure why Thomas’s mother’s first name is Helena rather than Elizbetha, or some such Latin variation. Her first and middle names may have been Elizabeth Helen or Elizabeth Ellen, or perhaps even Helen/Ellen Elizabeth St. John.

However, a Wikipedia article notes that Ellen is a “diminutive” of “Elizabeth, Eleanor, Elena, and Helen.” See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen

You can access Thomas’s baptism transcription at the following link. You’ll have to establish a free account at FMP before the transcription downloads:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4437952

Attached to the transcription is a link that takes you to a copy of the original baptism record for Thomas. Original Catholic baptism records are held by the National Library of Ireland in Kildare Street, Dublin.

So you do not have to go looking for the copy of Thomas’s baptism, I’ve attached it to this reply.

I’ve outlined the baptism entry for Thomas in blue. The original baptism record was a bit of a challenge to locate because some of baptisms in the register are crowded together side by side. The handwriting in the register is also difficult to decipher in some instances. For example, Thomas’s godfather is Johannes (John). His last name looks like it may be Sayer. The godmother’s first name is Elizabeth, but I couldn’t tell what her last name was with any certainty.

I also found the FMP marriage record for William and Elizabeth, but I believe you already have this record, showing they married on 13 July 1826 in Fethard, County Tipperary. If you do not have a copy of the original marriage record from the National Library of Ireland, I can send it to you.

Their first-born son was Gulielmum (William). His Fethard baptism of 25 August 1827 was noted by Roger McDonnell, who found the baptism at the RootsIreland website. In this baptism William’s mother is “Ellena” St. John.

See the transcription from the FMP website:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4437522

A copy of William’s original St. Mary’s Clonmel baptism record is attached to this reply. His godparents are Joannes (John) Ryan and Cath (Catherine) St. John. To the right of Catherine St. John’s name are the initials of the priest who performed the baptism. The first initial looks like J. I couldn’t exactly make out what the second initial was.

The godmother, Catherine St. John, may have been Ellena’s sister.

A Google Map shows that the St. Mary’s Clonmel Catholic Church is located along the Irishtown Upper Road (the R678), just north of the River Suir in Clonmel, Tipperary: https://tinyurl.com/b77zne8t

This Google link takes you to a Street View of St. Mary’s Clonmel:
https://tinyurl.com/2s7ycez7

The church in the Google Street View however, is not the church building where William Dwyer was baptized on 25 August 1827, or where Thomas was baptized on 6 January 1833.

According to the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland website, the present-day Saint Mary’s is dated to 1850. See:
https://tinyurl.com/3xnbfefd

However, I found a note by Buildings of Ireland representative, Jean Farrelly concerning St. Mary’s Church at the Buildings of Ireland website, giving an interesting history of the older church, which when first constructed, had a thatched roof:

“Immediately W of the present RC church of the Assumption (St. Mary's) on the S side of Irishtown. Following the Restoration of Charles II in 1660 the Franciscans, who had been remained in Clonmel since the Dissolution of their monastery, established a thatched chapel . The 'Mass house without the West gate' is mentioned in a letter of 1712 in which Edward Tyrell reports on R.C. activities in Clonmel (Pyke 1984, 14). It is indicated on a late 18th-century map of Clonmel (Shee and Watson 1975, 30). By 1714 the church was enlarged and the thatch replaced by slate (Pyke 1984, 14; illustration 13). The penal church, also known as St. Mary's, was described before its demolition as being 'separated from the street by a range of houses, through those a narrow lane led across the Chapel grounds to a flight of seven steps which brought one down to the door of the north transept. The chapel was T shaped and low...It ran east to west and unlike the present church made no pretentions to architecture. St. Mary's contained three galleries which were reached by stone steps on the outside of the building. It was lighted by long circular leaded windows. As the floor was seven feet below the present level, not infrequently divine service was suspended by floods from the river' (Pyke 1984, 14). Services continued up to c. 1850 when the old church was replaced by the present St. Mary's church. (Farrelly and FitzPatrick 1993, 76).”
----

It was in this older church structure where William and Thomas were baptized.

You can see a representation of the older church from an Ordnance Survey Map of Clonmel compiled between 1829 to 1841. The map is in colour. The church is labeled “R.C. Chap,” and is from the GeoHive website. See the attachment.

I next uncovered the FMP baptisms for three more children of William Dwyer and Elizabeth St. John. The children were baptized in the Fethard, County Tipperary Catholic Parish. The names and years of the baptisms for the three children are below:

Cath Dwyer, 1832
Ellen Dwyere, 1835
William Dwyere, 1837
----

The baptism of Catherine Dwyer was noted by Roger McDonnell in his reply of 4 August 2023.

The baptism of a second child named William means that the first-born William Dwyer (1827) had died.

NOTE: I didn’t find the baptism record for an Edward Dwyer either in Clonmel or Fethard, County Tipperary, or anywhere else in Ireland.

THE BAPTISM OF CATHERINE DWYER

Catherine was baptized on 6 July 1832. The FMP transcription shows the residence of the family at the time of the baptism was, “Valley.” See the FMP transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0407449

A copy of Catherine’s original baptism record, attached to this reply, shows her godfather is James Corcoran. The first name of her godmother is Ellen, whose middle and last names could be Lucy Ruane. To the right of Ellen’s name you’ll see the numbers 2.6. This means that Catherine’s parents donated 2 Shillings and 6 Pence to the Fethard parish for performing the baptism.

THE BAPTISM OF ELLEN DWYERE

Ellen was baptized in the Fethard Catholic Parish on 18 January 1835. The address of Ellen and her family is Kerry St., according to the FMP transcription at:
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0408139

A copy of the original baptism record, attached to this reply, shows the first name of Catherine’s godfather is Richd (Richard). I couldn’t tell what his last name was. Ellen’s godmother is Margt (Margaret) Colbert. William and Elizabeth St. John Dwyere donated 2 Shillings and 6 Pence to the parish for the baptism ceremony.

THE BAPTISM OF WILLIAM DWYERE

The FMP transcription shows William was baptized on 1 October 1837. His mother Elizabeth’s maiden name in the transcription is “Dwyere.” The residence of Richard and his parents is “St. John Kerry St.” The FMP transcriptionist obviously made an error in thinking that “St. John” was part of the Dwyere’s Kerry Street residence, rather than Elizabeth’s maiden name of St. John. See the transcription.
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F0408950

A copy of William’s original baptism record shows his godfather’s first name is Michl (Michael). I couldn’t tell what his last name was. The name of William’s godmother looks like Mary Needham.

William’s parents donated 2 Shillings and 6 Pence to the parish for the baptism.

Earlier you saw that in the 1832 baptism for Catherine Dwyer the residence of the family was “Valley.” The 1835 baptism for Ellen Dwyere and 1837 baptism for William Dwyere, show the residence of the family was Kerry Street.

I found both Kerry Street and “The Valley” in Google Maps of Fethard, County Tipperary, which you can view at: https://tinyurl.com/mahhrxh4

As you can see these locations are very close to one another in Fethard.

Here is a Google Street View of Kerry Street, also designated as the R693 Road, in Fethard: https://tinyurl.com/384bvp6u

The next link will bring you to a Google Street View of The Valley in Fethard: https://tinyurl.com/sst3pk6f

A Google Map of Fethard shows that the name of the Catholic Church in
is the Church of the Holy Trinity, located just north of both Kerry Street and The Valley: https://tinyurl.com/5t3h28t7

The following link will bring you to a Google Street View of the Church of the Holy Trinity and Graveyard: https://tinyurl.com/33e6avk9

According to the Fethard.com Historical Society’s “Short History of Fethard,” the Catholic Church was built in 1818-1819. See the 2nd to the last paragraph at: https://fethard.com/histor/history.html

Attached to this reply is an Ordnance Survey Map in colour from the 1829 to 1841 time period showing the location of the R.C. Chapel and Grave Yard in Fethard, situated in the western section of town, north of Main Street.

The Church you see in the lower-centre of the Ordnance Survey Map is the Church of Ireland.

The R.C. Chapel in Fethard is the church where William and Elizabeth were married in 1826, and where their children Catherine, Ellen, and the second-born William, were baptized, as noted above.

Because the Dwyer family had resided in two different towns, Fethard and Clonmel, I suspect that William Dwyer Sr. was either a merchant or perhaps a tradesman, or teacher, rather than a farmer.

You can follow the Dwyer family’s travels between Clonmel and Fethard by the five baptism records of their children, as outlined below:

William, 1827, Clonmel
Catherine, 1832, Fethard
Thomas, 1833, Clonmel
Ellen, 1835, Fethard
William, 1837, Fethard
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There is a five year gap between the baptism of William in 1827 and the baptism of Catherine in 1832. I looked for additional baptisms of Dwyer children in this five year period at the FMP website, but found none.

Do you know what William Dwyer Sr’s occupation was?

Your information shows that William Dwyer was born around 1805. I looked for his possible baptism in three Catholic Parishes: Clonmel Saint Mary’s, Clonmel Saints Peter and Paul, and Fethard. I did not find a baptism for him at the FMP website. I had actually looked for his baptism over a 10 year period in those parishes churches, from 1800 to 1810.

Elizabeth St. John and William Dwyer were married in Fethard. Catholic marriages traditionally take place in the bride’s parish, and so indications are the Fethard Catholic Church was Elizabeth’s parish.

I looked for Elizabeth St. John’s baptism records in Fethard from 1800 to 1810, but didn’t find it. I then expanded the search for her baptism to the Clonmel Saint Mary’s, and Clonmel Saints Peter and Paul Catholic Churches, but without results.

The National Library of Ireland website shows the Fethard Catholic Parish baptisms commence on 2 January 1806, and are available until 17 July 1881, though there are gaps in the baptism registers.

Fethard Catholic Parish marriages are available at the National Library of Ireland website beginning on 12 January 1806 and are available until 23 January 1881. There are gaps in the marriage records as well.

See the Fethard Catholic Parish registers availability, and a map of the Fethard Catholic Parish, and surrounding Catholic parishes at the National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0263

The Clonmel St. Mary’s Catholic Parish registers of baptism begin on 4 February 1790. Marriages begin on 24 April 1797. To see the full range of the Clonmel St. Mary’s registers, and a map of the parish, go to:
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1102

The National Library of Ireland website also shows the Clonmel Saints Peter and Paul Catholic Parish registers of baptisms and marriage are available only from 11 February 1836. See: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1103

What this means is that if Edward Dwyer was baptized in the Clonmel Saints Peter and Paul Parish before 1836, there will not be a baptism record for him at the National Library of Ireland website. Your records show Edward was born around 1832, though 1832 is the year that Catherine Dwyer was born and baptized.

According to the Saints Peter and Paul Clonmel History website link, the parish church by this name was established in 1836, though there had been a church on the site where the church is today dating from 1810. See: https://sspeterandpaul.ie/History.php

ENGLAND

You had mentioned that Thomas and his brother Edward emigrated to England. I found what I believe to be Thomas and Edward “O’Dwyer” in the 1861 census at Ancestry.com. Their address was 8 Albion Place, Clerkenwell, Finsbury, London. Thomas is shown to be the head of the household. He is a 27 year “Block Maker” born in Clonmel, Ireland. His wife is 25 year old Harriet. Her place of birth looks like Warwickshire, Birmingham.

Thomas and Harriet have two children in the household. They are 2 year old Eliza, born Middlesex St. Sepulchre, and 6 month old Catherine, born in Clerkenwell. Also in the household is Thomas’s 29 year old brother Edward O’Dwyer, a “Carpenter” born in Clonmel.

The 1861 census is from the subscription Ancestry.com website and is attached to this reply.

For information about what a blockmaker did for a living, see Wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blockmaker

I now wanted to see if I could find the marriage index for Thomas Dwyer/O’Dwyer at the FreeBMD website, as this would tell me what Harriet’s maiden name was. If Thomas and Harriet followed tradition, their marriage would have been recorded in a Civil Registration District in the Bride’s home parish in Warwickshire.

Their oldest child in the 1861 census is 2 year old Eliza, with a birth year, ostensibly of 1859. I looked for Thomas and Harriet’s marriage index for the years covering 1855 to 1860. I only found one index in all of England for the marriage of a Thomas Dwyer and a Harriet during this five year time period, showing that Thomas’s middle name was Joseph, and that Harriet’s maiden name was Robinson. The marriage was recorded in the Aston Registration District.

I’m not sure if I have the correct marriage because Thomas’s middle name is his mother’s maiden name of St. John, not Joseph. Joseph could have been an error in the census, or having been baptized Catholic, could have been a conformation name. A transcription of the marriage index from the BMD website is below:

Marriage June Quarter 1858

Thomas Joseph Dwyer
Harriett Robinson
Registration District: Aston
Volume: 6d
Page: 278

Source: FreeBMD
----

I didn’t know Aston was located in Warwickshire, and so I went to the UKBMD website to find out. The UKBMD website shows that Aston was in Warwickshire, where one of the Civil Parishes was Birmingham. Warwickshire Birmingham is recorded in the 1861 census as Harriet’s birthplace. See the UKBMD entry at:
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/aston.html

The marriage record for Thomas and Harriet can be found in Volume 6d, Page 278 of the registers held by the HM Passport Office/General Register Office (GRO) in Southport, north of Liverpool. If you do not have a copy of the original marriage record you can order it online from the above GRO website.

Going on the premise that that Thomas Dwyer married Harriet Robinson, I looked for the birth indexes for any children they may have had. Birth indexes are available at the FreeBMD website but do not provide the maiden name of the child’s mother until birth indexes beginning in 1912.

The HM Passport Office/General Register Office (GRO) has its own search engine where you can look for birth as well as death indexes, but not marriage indexes. Most of the birth indexes at the GRO site do include the maiden name of the child’s mother, but not her first name, nor the first name of the father.

I found 11 birth indexes for Dwyer children whose mother’s maiden name was Robinson. These births were recorded in several different Registration Districts, including East London; Clerkenwell; Saint Luke Middlesex; Kensington; and Holborn. The majority of the births were recorded in the Holborn Registration District.

Because the first names of the child’s father and mother are not recorded in the indexes, I can’t be sure all of these births are for the children of Thomas Dwyer and Harriet Robinson.

The 11 indexes are below:

Name: ELIZA, MARY
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in EAST LONDON
Volume 01C Page 32

Name: DWYER, CATHERINE HELEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in CLERKENWELL
Volume 01B Page 496

Name: DWYER, EDWARD RICHARD
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in CLERKENWELL
Volume 01B Page 523

Name: DWYER, HARRIETT ELLEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in SAINT LUKE MIDDLESEX
Volume 01B Page 643

Name: DWYER, MARGARET
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in KENSINGTON
Volume 01A Page 73

Name: DWYER, THOMAS ST.JOHN
Mother's Maiden Surname:ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in HOLBORN
Volume 01B Page 700

Name: DWYER, JOSEPH JOHN
Mother's Maiden Surname:ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1871 S Quarter in HOLBORN
Volume 01B Page 657

Name: DWYER, MARY ELLEN
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1873 M Quarter in HOLBORN
Volume 01B Page 775

Name: DWYER, JOHN ANGELO
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1875 S Quarter in HOLBORN
Volume 01B Page 739

Name: DWYER, FLORENCE
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in HOLBORN
Volume 01B Page 814

Name: DWYER, ERNEST
Mother's Maiden Surname: ROBINSON
GRO Reference: 1881 S Quarter in HOLBORN
Volume 01B Page 804

Source: HM Passport Office: General Register Office
----

You’ll notice that the middle name of Thomas Dwyer born in 1869 is “St. John.”

I hope that at least some of the information in this reply has been helpful.

With Kind Regards,

Dave Boylan

SOURCES

Find My Past
Wikipedia
National Library of Ireland
Ireland XO Volunteer Roger McDonnell's reply of 4 August 2023
Google Maps
Google Street Views
National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland
National Inventory of Architectural Heritage/Buildings of Ireland notation by Jean Farrelly
GeoHive: Ordnance Survey Maps
Fethard.com Historical Society’s, “Short History of Fethard.”
Saints Peter and Paul Clonmel History: https://sspeterandpaul.ie/History.php
Ancestry.com: 1861 England Census
Wiktionary
FreeBMD
UKBMD
HM Passport Office/General Register Office (GRO)

Thank you so much for this. It has taken me a while to get through it all. I already had a free Find My Past and I subscribe to Ancestry. I think the baptismal record for Thomas Dwyer showing his mother as Mc John is miss transcribed as when you look more closely at the original it looks like St John. It's so kind of you to have found all the baptism records and circled them in blue: I had looked a few times and couldn't find them and the Latin was throwing me! Yes, thank you I have the marriage record for William and Elizabeth. 

I have the marriage certificate for Thomas Senior and Harriett Robinson. Yes it is the right one as I can track it on from there to what I know. I know the certificate says Thomas Joseph but the signature looks like St John. 

Thank you for looking up the GRO refs for all their children. I have all the census so I agree with most of them. I have Eliza, Catherine, Thomas St John, Joseph, Mary, John, Florence and Earnest. You have listed an Edward, Harriet and Margaret that I don't have: it would make sense that there are other children as I had a gap where there were none. It looks like Edward died as I can find a death for him aged 2. I can't find a death for Harriett (born 1864) and she doesn't appear on the 1871 census so she may not be theirs. I'm not sure Margaret is theirs either. I also have two more Albert Richard born 1867 who is theirs as he is my great grandfather and Alice born 1869. I will do a bit more checking over the weekend on these.

Thank you so very much for all of this. You must have spent a lot of time on it and I am extremely grateful. 

Regards Paula

 

You're welcome Paula and many thanks for your kind reply.

Dave