Family History

Hi Ian,

What was your g grandmother's first name?

Anne

Hi Kenden

Doh, such an obvious omission, sorry it was Elizabeth.

Ian

Hi Ian

Was Elizabeth a Catholic and do you know what church she married in?  If you can get a copy of the entry in the church register that may give you some more clues such as both parents names.

All the best.

Linda Magee

Ian:

Apologies to Anne but I searched Roots Ireland www.rootsireland.ie and did locate an 1861 baptismal record for an Elizabeth Whitty, father John in the Curragh RC parish records in Co. Kildare. Not sure if this is your ancestor. Roots is a pay site to view a transcription of a church record.

Roger McDonnell

Hi Linda

Thanks for the reply. I've looked at Marriage Certificate and it was St Bartholomews Church in Salford, whivch doing a Google looks to be C of E. Might be worth a check of the register to see if any more details are there. Thanks.

Ian

Roger

Thanks for this, it does read correct, does the record show a mothers name though? I could really do to find that out. My plan was to try and work gradually backwards from her last know location in England at 19 years old in 1881, and maybe track down the year and which ship she came over in, although i read the records kept by the Irish side in this time period for immagration were not good, with better records being kept at the port of entry. Maybe I'm hoping too much, and need to work with whatever presents itself. Thanks once again.

Ian

Ian:

I worked with the Roots indexes and figured out that her first name was Mary but I could not determine the surname.

Roger

Hi Roger

I've been on the Rootsireland site and paid to view. However I'm a bit confused bt what you said. The E Whitty lised in Baptisim Records has a father called Laurence, with a location in Co Wexford. Wheras the other name that came up in the search in Co. Kildare was E Whilly, she has a father called John.

I've tried to attach a screen shot of each record, so I hope they come out.

Ian

Ian:

The screenshots came out fine.

Based on your original note, I searched around 1862 for Elizabeth Whitty with a father named John (second paragraph of your note). The only record that came up for me was the Kildare record. (The Wexford record would not come up for me because the father was other than John).

When using the index, Roots will search for variants spelling of the surname and obviously they have Whilly as a variant of Whitty. You would not know this until you pull the actual record like you did.

Hope this makes sense. Let me know if you have further questions.

Roger

Hi Ian

I found the following site which shows a record of Elizabeth Whitty's marriage in St Bartholomews in 1881:

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Salford/Salford-Central/stbartholomew/index.h…

Matches your details apart from the age of Elizabeth - says she was 28 - making her yob approx 1853.  Also worth noting is the grooms father is recorded as deceased but Elizabeth's is not so you can assume that he was still alive then and means you can search for a death record after 1881.  You should definitely validate this websites source to be sure it is correct.

I will look again for John Whitty and in particular his death.  You can assume he was at least 18 when Elizabeth was born so I can work from that.

Unfortunately Elizabeths yob is too early for civil registration in Ireland but there may be some church record - somewhere.

Hope that helps.

Linda

Hi Linda

What a coincidence I too last had found the St Bartholomews site and the Marriage record, however I had completely missed her age in the record as being 28. We had assumed she was about 19 or 20, the Marriage Certificate we thought had said 20, I've attached an extract, see what you think? Yes the certificate also records the Grooms father as deceased, and Elizabeths as John Whitty Shoe Maker.

Going back onto YOB though, I pulled up the 1881 England Census which was taken just before the marriage, and it ages her as being 19 in 1881, and working as a Servant for "An Independant Lady" the Census address for her is the same one on the marriage certificate, so it ties up, but doesn't explain the age. Do you think it could be a record transcription error, transposing 20 for 28? I have come across a few of these.

Might also explain what Roger said earlier, using Rootsireland i couldn't find a John Whitty related to an Elizabeth, but it did find a John Whilly. I can see how easily tt could become ll, when reading hand writing from the 1880's.

Love to hear what you think, thanks for your help so far.

Ian

Hi Roger

Thanks for your reply. I've also had a reply from Linda below, which I've answered as you can see. Is it safe to assume these are record transcription errors? As I've said to Linda I can see how easily tt can become ll when reading 1880's handwriting, as with the query over Elizabeths age.

Ian

Thanks volunteers. Good luck with your search Ian!

Best wishes

Clare Doyle

Genealogy Support 

Ian:

Transcription errors do occur, however, the issue for me is the Elizabeth's age. If she was born around 1853 then the Kildare record I found would not be on target. I did another search of Roots for 1848-1858 for Elizabeth with a father John and one record came up in 1856 in Co. Wicklow. You can search the Roots indexes also but I'm not sure that is the correct record either. 

I know Linda indicated that she was going to look at the death index records. I took a quick look also and surprisingly there were a lot of John Whitty deaths in the late 1800s. The greater majority of them were in Co. Wexford. Now for the bad news. Roots Ireland has very few parish records for Co. Wexford-- only 6 RC parishes and 2 Church of Ireland parishes. This means that if Elizabeth was from Wexford then there is a very good chance that her record is not on Roots.

I checked the site below and 68.7% of the Whitty entries in the Griffiths were in Co. Wexford.

Roger

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

Hi Ian

It's often the case that old records contradict each other in terms of peoples names and ages and unfortunately without further information it'll be hard to verify one over another.  I do think the age on the marriage cert could possibly be 28 though.

As Roger has said there are alot of John Whitty's about in the 19th century so narrowing down the list to identify a death record may be difficult.  However, there is an additional piece of information you have that may help - the religion of the family.

Elizabeth married in St Josephs, which is a Protestant church and so we can take it that she was Protestant as well as her family.  I did check the baptism records for St Josephs to see if she possibly converted at or around the time of her marriage but I don't see a match for her. So lets assume she was always Protestant.  Which means we can narrow the search down for the rest of her family to protestant Whitty's.

If you search for Whitty on the Irish 1901 census, 688 records come up.  Of these 662 are Catholic leaving 26 Protestant.  This helps to narrow it down a bit and these individuals may be worth looking at.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this theory, or anyone elses thoughts too.

Also, I have been trying to think of where else you would get information on Elizabeth in England where her family details might be required.  Do you have a date of death for her?  Any obituaries?

All the best.

Linda

Hi Linda, Roger

Thanks for the great replies, with helpful information. I think it might be best just going back to what we / I know, just for the record to avoid going into a tail spin, here goes -

Starting point for this was my Grandfather James Meeson & his Birth Cert which shows DOB 24/02/1894, and parents Thomas Meeson and mother Elizabeth Meeson, formally Whitty. living at that time in Sheffield England. I then went forward to the 1901 census and found them plus other children they had, still in Sheffield. I then went to the 1911 census, and found them again, although by this time Elizabeth was noted as being a Widow, so Thomas has passed on during the previous 10 years. So I now work back to the 1891 census, James (my Grandfather isn't there, he's not yet born, but the information ties together through James older siblings, who show on both 1891 & 1901 census. The 1911 census clearly ages Elizabeth at 49, and shows her birth place as Ireland, but nationality as British.

So far so good, the 1881 census for Elizabeth, (screen shot & record transcript attached) age Elizabeth at 19, (Linda you might say this is 29) and show her living at 98 Talbot Street, the Marriage Cert also records her as living at 98 Talbot Street, so that ties up, however Linda you think the age on the Cert could be 28, and not 20. Based on the 1911 census clearly showing her age as 49, it points to 1862 as YOB.

The 1881 census for Thomas shows him living in Salford Barracks in the 8th Army Regiment, this is also shown on the Marriage Cert, so again that ties up. Linda where did you get St Joseph's from for the marriage? The Cert says St Bartholomews in Salford, which was C of E.

This is now where it starts to unravel, as I can't find any 1871 census records for Elizabeth. I did go forward to check on a death for Elizabeth, her last address on the 1911 census was still Sheffield,  a death does show for an Elizabeth Meeson in Sheffield in 1948, which would age her at 87. I have sent off for this certificate, in the hope it holds some clues.

Phew, probably enough for now, but welcome any more thoughts you might have.

Thanks for your help so far.

Ian

Hi Roger

Thanks for the reply, I have done a lengthy reply to Linda, which might help with the birth date, I think it has to be around 1862, as explained in the reply to Linda the 1911 England Census shows her living as a Widow, but clearly ages her at 49.

Cheers

Ian

Hi Ian

Thanks for the additional details - I hope the cert you get gives you something.  Apologies for the St Josephs mistake.  Thats actually the name of a church my GGGrandparents married in in 1885!  Been doing some research on them recently so I got crossed wires somewhere.

It'll be hard to close the net on the Whitty family without a bit more info.  I wonder if anyone in your family has any recollection of your Grandfather talking about Aunts or Uncles on the Whitty side?

I've also been wondering what are the chances that Elizabeth migrated to the UK with her parents and siblings?

More to think about I suppose.

Best of luck

Linda

Hi Linda

An update for you, I got the Death Cert for Elizabeth, she died in December 1948 at the ripe old age of 87. I've checked the details on it and it all seems to tie back, so I'm as sure as I can be it's her. So that would give a birth year of 1861, searching Roots Ireland for that year, +/- 2 years only brings up one hit under the name of Whilly, I think as I've said before it's easy to see how two tt can become two ll. This is aso searching using her fathers name as well. The hit is actually for a Baptisim in Co Kildare, no mention of a birth record. I've attached the record again for info. I've treid asking family but all have already passed on, and the one remaining person, my dads sister developed Alzimers last year so can't help. So my questions still -

- who are and what relation are the sponsors on the recod?

- Is it possible to find a Birth Cert?

- where else could I go with the Baptisim information?

- how / where would I go looking for ship passenger lists, is it better on the English side or Irish side?

Any thoughts / idea's. Appreciate any help you can offer, but I understand that it's looking a bit unlikely.

Best regards

Ian

Hi Roger

I got the Death cert for Elizabeth, she died in 1948 at the ripe old age of 87, which birth dates her in 1861, I've doen a Roots Ireland search on teh info with a +/- 2 years ans also using teh Fathers name. To save typing again I've replied to Linda which I guess you can look at. Appreciate any other thoughts or ideas you might have. Thanks.

Best regards

Ian

Ian:

I can't add anything. Civil registration started in 1864 so no birth cert available. I don't think shipping records are available between Ireland and England. The sponsor data is not helpful unless you pursue the female sponsor as a married sister of the mother but that is a long shot. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Roger

Dear all

Just 12 months on and I'm back, hello. In the last month or so I've managed, with some brilliant help of Manchester & Salford Family History Forum, and a lady called Rose from Lancashire OPC I think we have found some vital missing jigsaw peices. If you recall I was searching for my G Grandmother Elizabeth Whitty, she is recorded in the 1881 Census as living & working in Salford as a Servant aged 19, but born Ireland. Later in 1881 she marries my G Grandfather Thomas Meeson in Salford, again birth recorded as Ireland and her Father as John Whitty occupation Shoemaker. But trying to work back from 1881in spite of the above help ended in a cold trail. I had found a Baptism record for an Elizabeth Whitty in 1861 in Curragh, Father John Whitty, but no corroberation. So jump forward to now and we have found a Birth record for Elizabeth under the British Armed Forces Birth Index on FMP, 

1861 Elizabeth Whitty
Place: Curragh
Regiment: 11th
Vol: 946 Page: 20

With further research in turns out her Father John Whitty joined the 11th Devonshire Regiment, I have copies of his Army discharge papers. The papers show he joined in September 1857 aged 21 years, his birth place is Broadway Wexford, Co Wexford. His discharge was in Manchester April 1879, having served 21 years, 11& half of which was in East Indies. His occupation a Shoemaker, although it states his intended place of residence is Broadway Co Wexford, indicating he was heading back to his place of birth, however the 1892 Census shows him and some family members still in Salford, although the spelling of Whitty is Witty.

The BAFBI also throws up another John Whitty, but this turns out to be his son & Elizabeths sibling, I think it is actually Michael John Whitty, but he also has an Army record joining in 1886 in Ashton Under Lyne, and his birth place is Cork, Cork. His NoK details are for John Whitty Snr.

Going back to John Whitty Snr, his Army record also shows him being a volunteer of the 99th Wexford Regiment of Militia for 2 years joining in February 1855, before joining the 11th.

Well sorry I've gone on a bit here, but I'd apprecaite some help with th following if possible please -

What would John Whitty have been doing in the 99th Wexford Militia, what were they about?

If he had joined the British Army in 1857 in Manchester, how come Elizabeths birth in 1861, and the later one of John Jnr are recorded in Ireland, is it likely he would have gone back there after joining up, but before heading to East Indies?

I also believe looking at the list of Whitty names in the BAFBI there are other children of his, Elizabeths siblings, but born out in East Indies.

Appreciate your help with this, if anyone needs to see copy documents to help, I can send them.

Regards

Ian Meeson