Samuel Bray and Patrick Bray

Hello   ????  

Welcome to  " Ireland Reaching Out " .  . . 

What caught my eye . . as a volunteer for I.R.O . . was the mention of " Camross " Laoise ( in Co.Laoise ) ( a.k.a. Queens County back then )

and the mention of Mountrath and Portlaoise  ( a.k.a Maryborough back then )  - - - - (see map (5) below )

So . . . I live in Roscrea . . . which . . in the map . . you will see is approx 10 miles from Camross (red indicator) . . . so I am familiar with this area . . 

to the left in the map  (approx 10 miles ) is the Town of BIRR .Co Offaly . . ( a.k.a Parsonstown back then )

and to the right is - Mountrath and Portlaoise . . . 

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When I began MY search for Patrick Bray ( the Father ). . . on Roots (paid) . . . with a Birth age of 1820 +/- 10.yrs. . . searching ALL Ireland . . all 32 Counties

Roots came up with . . .approx 20 births of a Patrick Bray ( all over ireland ) . . . two in particular caught my eye  . . because you mention the "  British Military  " association . . 

BIRR . . the Town . . . has always had an association with the British Military . . it was a Garrison Town . . home to the " Leinster Regiment " . . in " Crinkell Barracks " (see map)

the Leinster Regiment . . had campaigns World wide . . over a Century . . 

SO . . what I am wondering is . . . could one of these two Births ...1817 . . .1819 . . . be the Father of the Patrick Bray 1839 ??? ( later to join the British army in the U.K.)

Camross and Birr are in close proximity . . . 

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Bray (6) . . . below . . .shows a    Patrick Bray    born Mountrath in 1843 (Roots). . . with a Father JAMES  and mother ANNE

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Bray (7) is SAMUEL . . . b. 1843 . . in CAMROSS . . F.  Patrick , , M. Mary

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Bray (8) is WILLIAM . . .b. 1847 . . in MOUNTRATH . . . F. . William . . . M. Anne . . . 

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SO . . evidently . . . we are talkinga FEW different families . . . same approx. area's . . of birth . . . 

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DO you pehaps know . . . if one of the Sons . . .(William ). . .  might have later emigrated to Australia perhaps ???

Do you know if . . . one of them might have later . . been a CREW member on the boats which operated out of the U.K.   ????

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See Bray (1) below . . . which turned up in my search  . . . ticking all the boxes . . ." except "     Location 

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I hope . . some of the above . . may be of some help . . or give other possability to your search . . 

Good luck with same . . 

Cheers . . . Eamonn

So . . . are you familiar with the " Family Tree " of Samuel . . . on Ancestry.Com

posted as the " Vail Fam.Tree " by -- duradan

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/28023465/person/26428249476/facts?_phsrc=PdH22799&_phstart=successSource

Eamonn:

Thank you so much for your advice and tips. It is so helpful to find someone who is familiar with the area and your suggestions are most appreciated. It is especially interesting what you say regarding Birr being a military town. I have often wondered if the reason I can not find a birth record for my Patrick (1839) is that he was born abroad. My Patrick was stationed in India for much of his military career and my grandfather Samuel was born there. Patrick had at least 3 children while in India, two of which are burried there as well as his wife Margaret.

While both the 1817 and 1819 are certainly possibilities as Patrick 1939's father based on locations etc., my only concerns would be that my Patrick's 1864 marriage record in Salford, Lancashire England lists his father's profession as "General Laborer" and that at least the 1819 Patrick Bray was stilll engaged with the 77th Foot through the 1870s. I haven't found anything further on Patrick 1817. Also of slight concern is that neither Patrick 1817 nor Patrick 1819 have parents with future family forenames that I've yet discovered.

Bray(6) -- I thought this was my Patrick for some time until I uncovered his marriage license and his sister's marriage record both listing their father as Patrick. It's very likely this could be a cousin, however.

Bray(7) -- I feel very strongly that this is a sibling to my Patrick and Samuel is also one of Patrick's son's names. I suspect that the father of my Patrick (1839) married a Mary Kenna on 1 Nov 1836 in Maryborough, so the "Mary n/r" could be her. Of note, the link from rootsireland.ie to Samuel's actual parish record does not appear to display any Samuel Bray on the page, so I can't verify the actual index entry.

Bray(8) -- Agreed. Related family some how. Perhaps cousins.

I have not tracked any sons in the Navy or to Australia, but hints of that nature do keep popping up on Ancestry. At first glance, they do not apear to match up, but I haven't explored too far.

Bray(1) -- Is intriguing, however, I think there's a more likely William born Will Bray to Patt Bray and Mary Kenna, baptized 3 July 1847 in Camross. I think this is one of my Patrick (1839)'s brothers perhaps.

I looked at the Vail fam.tree. I haven't sorted it out yet, but I've previously come across a problem with this Samuel/Mary family. There seem to be to Samuel Bray/wife Mary families in this part of england with very similary named and aged children: one Samuel born in Ireland and one Samuel born in Dukinfield Cheshire England. One emmigrates to the America's and one stays in England...or something else is going on that I don't yet understand. One of them, though, I believe is Bray(1). In either regard, I think the tree has Samuel's mother Mary Kelly listed in error. It is taken from the Marriage Record incorrectly. Mary Kelly is the spouse, not the mother. Interestingly, my Patrick's death record Informant is a sister, Mary Ann Simmonds. Mary Ann was first married to a Patrick Kelly with a father of Thomas Kelly. Samuel of Ireland is married to a Mary Kelly, who's father is also a Thomas Kelly. I think we have a brother and sister Bray marrying a brother and sister Kelly.

Also of note, two years prior to my Patrick's death, the 1881 Bradford Yorkshire census shows his sister Mary Ann Simmonds and her mother Mary living in the same house. Mary Ann is noted as being born in Tiperary (Brit Subj), Ireland -- maybe while father Patrick was stationed there -- and mother Mary is noted as being born in Queens County Marlbow (Brit Subj), Ireland -- which I assume is intended to be Maryborough?

I'm sure that's more detail than you ever wanted to know about the Bray family ;-). Thank you for your time and consideration. If any other tips or clues just out at you, I am most interested. This Bray family has been challenging every step of the way.

Hi again . . . (what is your name  ??? and where are you residing ??? )

The more you lay out  . . . the more I become confused .. . so . . forgive me . . but I just stick to some areas of interest . . . local.

So . . .in Ireland . . .in those areas of time . . . we have a very valuable source of historical (tax on property - mainly land ) records

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http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/results.jsp?surname=Bray&firstname=&county=Queen%27s&townland=&parish=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=&pager.offset=0

Known as " Tithes Applotment "  

The Tithe Applotment Books

The Tithe Applotment Books are a vital source for genealogical research for the pre-Famine period, given the loss of the 1821-51 Census records. They were compiled between 1823 and 1837 in order to determine the amount which occupiers of agricultural holdings over one acre should pay in tithes to the Church of Ireland (the main Protestant church and the church established by the State until its dis-establishment in 1871).

See Map below (Bray 9) . . . 1829 . . . Tithes confirms the presence of Bray;s living , , at the stated location . . .

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Known as . . " Griffiths Valuation "  ( 1847 - 1864 )  . . . which I searched . . for you . . given what info.is to hand . . 

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&Submit.x=41&Submit.y=8&familyname=Bray&firstname=&baronyname=&countyname=QUEEN%27S&unionname=&parishname=

Searching Griffiths . . . Queens County . . names BRAY . . . on or near CAMROSS . . . TWO names jump out . . 

Patrick Bray  in OFFERLANE (see map ) Offerlane ( a coutry district near to Camross ) .( see 10A) . . .

See Griffiths Map (below) - - - (10A)

William Bray . . in Mountrath . . . (Griffiths (11A)

Griffiths records . . . between (1847 and 1864 ) . . . the Bray's . . were indeed resident in those two locations . . . 

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Fast forward now to the National Census of 1901 . . . Bray's Families . . are still numerous in that larger geographical area of Queen's Co.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=Bray&exact=&firstname=&county19011911=Queen%27s+Co.&county1821=&county1831=&county1841=&county1851=&townland=&ded=&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&nativeCountry=&language=&deafdumb=&houseNumber=&familiesNumber=&malesNumber=&femalesNumber=&maleServNumber=&femaleServNumber=&estChurchNumber=&romanCatNumber=&presbNumberDiv=&protNumber=&parish=&barony=&yearsMarried=&causeOfDeath=&yearOfDeath=&familyId=&ageInMonths=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

There are no " useful " census records prior to 1901 . . . 

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SO . . . again . . . hope some of this is useful . . . 

Cheers . . . Eamonn.

Hi, I don’t know if this will help or confuse you more.  My great great grandmother was Elizabeth Bray of Castletown Mountrath area but in the Parish records for her marriage it is recorded as Brophy.  My grandfather always said it was spelt Bray but pronounced Brophy.  Elizabeth  was born in Castletown Laois and her parents were Anna Bloomer and James Bray (Brophy).  Her parents married in 1807 in Castletown but I have never been able to find a record of any baptisms in Ireland.  I have been told that the baptismal records for Camross and Castletown interchange as the Parish was moved yet there is a period between 1807 and 1840 where there appear to be large gaps.  Elizabeth married Patrick Delany of Castletown but again, no record but fortunately their children’s baptisms feature in Castletown records. Castletown, Camross and Mountrath are so very close together and I know Elizabeth attended schooling in Mountrath.   Elizabeth and her adult children moved to New Zealand in the 1860’s. I suspect we may be distant cousins, I have an account on Ancestry with my DNA.  Anna Bloomer, her mother, was originally a Quaker who married a Papist James Bray.

Not sure if this is . . . of any . . use in advancing you search . . . 

but sometime little nuggets lead to a gold mine . . . 

Cheers

I forgot these attachments in my  "original " . . reply to you . . sorry for causing confusion . . . 

I am descended from the Bray family of Durrow Parish, Queen's County.  The earliest record I have of my ancestors from there is a John Bray, born there in 1762.  He appears to have had an uncle who was with the church called Rev. Thomas Bray born about 1730.  John Bray enlisted in the ranks of the 4th Horse, which was later renamed the Dragood Guards.  He spent quite a lot of time living in Dublin.  His wife was Peggy Nugent.  His son was Lt. Col. Edward William Bray born 1787 in Londford, christened in the Catholic church at Westmeath.  Edward was married to Belinda Murray, possibly born in Dublin - but needs a record.  Perhaps these people are of the same Bray family?