William, son of James Ryan

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

I have passed this to our Antrim Volunteer. I hope she will be in touch soon.

Best wishes
Clare Doyle
Genealogy Support

Dear Clare,

I appreciate you passing my query to one of your volunteers.  Fingers crossed for a positive response.  Thank you.

Waterford

Donegore civil parish is in the RC parish of Antrim. Unfortunately they have no records before 1873. Newtown Crummelin is in the RC parish of Braid. They have no records before 1878. So if your ancestor came from either of those parishes then unfortunately it won?t be possible to find a baptism for him.

However be aware that Griffiths isn?t a comprehensive list of everyone in Ireland. Not all properties were listed, only heads of household were listed, so servants, lodgers, families in shared houses and cabins of too low a value to be listed are all examples of situations in which people were not included in Griffiths. Some parts of Belfast were included but some were not. So if your ancestor was born in Belfast c 1839, then it?s quite possible his father won?t be in Griffiths (assuming he were alive in the 1860s anyway).

James Ryan is a pretty common name in Ireland. There were 1425 of them in the 1901 census, so you need to be careful when deciding which one was yours. I don?t see any Belfast RC baptism records on-line on the rootsireland site, and you may need to check the copies held in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast, or the National Library in Dublin to try and locate William?s baptism. Not surprisingly there were several RC churches in the city at that time so several sets of records will need to be checked. They are not on-line.

Don?t expect a great deal of extra information from the baptisms if you do find it. RC baptism records from that era usually just have the parents names, the child?s name and the 2 sponsors names. No addresses etc.

Thanks for your help Elwyn. Good luck with your research Waterford!

Best wishes
Clare
Genealogy Support

Dear Clare,

Further to my previous correspondence with you (Thanks for your previous response) regarding William Ryan born between 1839 and 1843 according to England census records, I have now discovered a new census that records the following:

1851 census reveals an Alfred William Bryan born about 1842, age 9, born Ireland living with his parents "James and Maria" Bryan in the Civil Parish of Birkenhead, EP is Holy Trinity, County is Cheshire, Country is England. Registration District is Wirral, Sub is Birkenhead, ED is 11, Household Schedule os 159, Piece is 2175, Folio is 276 and Page Number is 55.   I think the only significant difference between 1851 and 1861 census is the change in Registration District from Wirral to Birkenhead.

Assuming this census is correct then my GG Grandfather left Ireland as a young boy much earlier than I thought.  The other thing is that even though my GG Grandfathers marriage certificate records his surname and his Fathers surname as "William Ryan" and James Ryan respectively rather than Bryan, I think it is not unlikely that my GG Grandfather preferred William to Alfred and made a conscious decision to drop his first name altogether.  I also think it is quite possible that when my GG Grandfather and his parents James and Marie came to England, that they arrived in England with a marked strong Irish accent.  When my GG Grandfather known as William (Rather than Alfred William) got married just maybe his very strong Irish accent caused confusion and his surname Bryan was recorded in error simply as Ryan.  Also, because of my GG Grandfathers inability to read, write or spell, his surname was not corrected.

Also, I have viewed Griffiths Valuations and I saw 4 people with the name James Bryan and 1 person with the name James O' Bryan in the County of Antrim.  There are 3 possible parishes where my GG Grandfather was baptized which are:  Ballymoney, Shankill and Derryaghy.  As my ancestor known as William indicates on 1871 census that he was from Antrim it is my hope that it is possible for someone on this Forum to volunteer to conduct a search on my berhalf?

Can someone please conduct a search for Alfred William Bryan born between 1839 - 1843 to James and Marie Bryan, who was baptized either at the parish of Ballymoney, Shankill or Derryaghy, Antrim. 

I hope this is not an impossible task to undertake?  I hope for a positive response.  Thank you for considering my request.

Regards,

Waterford246

Waterford,

Clare has asked me to reply to your last post.

I am slightly confused. You said previously that according to the 1871 census your William Ryan was born in Belfast. Now you are researching Alfred William Bryan, who might have been born in Ballymoney, Derriaghy or Shankill. I think it?s a bit of a leap to suppose your ancestor changed names from Ryan to Bryan due to an Irish accent. It is true that names do change when people move, but I think I would be looking for firmer evidence before concluding that this is what happened in your family?s case. I suspect these are two different people. Have you tried tracing Alfred William Bryan forward to see if he is still alive in 1871 or 1881 as well as your William? That would help decide.

If your William said he was born in Belfast, I suggest you search RC parish records in Belfast for a Wm son of James, before assuming he changed his name. And even if he changed his name, you would still expect him to be born in Belfast, not Ballymoney or Derriaghy, would you not?

The main sets of RC records for Belfast for the period you are interested in are on-line on the rootsireland site (subscription), but be aware that some early RC records are lost (eg St Mary?s Belfast). However the majority are still in existence. Additional sets of Belfats RC records are held in the National Library in Dublin and in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast. They are free to view but a personal visit is required to access them.

Do not rely too heavily on Griffiths Valuation as your only source of information. It?s not a census. Only a fraction of the population were listed in Griffiths. It?s very useful, especially if you know your family were farmers, but for someone from a residential area in Belfast (as may be the case here) then don?t expect them to be listed.

If you want look-ups for baptisms in Derriaghy, Ballymoney and Shankill, then you need to do that yourself, or employ a researcher, as the information is not available free on-line. Here?s a link to a site that lists all RC baptism records in Ireland, and tells you where copies are held. Some are on-line on various pay to view or subscription sites. For the others, a personal visit will be required to NLI or PRONI.

http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/

Elwyn

Dear Elwyn,

Thank you for responding to my post.

I was looking at this website:  http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNam…

I know nothing about the geography of either Ireland or Northern Ireland so when I looked at the above website I got the impreesion that Ballymoney, Shankill and Derryaghy were parishes in the County of Antrim.  The website you have posted tells a different stroy about geography.  The Griffiths Valuation I viewed is obviously misleading and needs to be corrected.

I have just clicked on Belfast City in the County of Antrim on the map you kindly sent me and there appears to be a number of Churches listed, some are available to view at PRONI, NLI or UHF.

There does not appear to be that many records available on-line so can you please recommend a researcher or just send me a list of researchers I can contact who charge reasonable rates.  Thank you.

I have researched William Ryan from 1861 all the way to his death in 1909 and I know which cemetery this William is/was buried at in Padiham, Lancashire, England.  The 1861 census shows William Ryan, approx age 20 years old living as a Lodger in Birkenhead, Cheshire, England and therefore no longer living with his family.  William married in 1864 as 1871 census reflects this and William is still living in Birkenhead.  The 1881 census shows William had moved to Blackburn, Lancashire and the 1891 and 1901 census shows William had moved twice more.

The real problem lies with tracking down 1851 census which should show William Ryan about age 10 and living with his parents.  I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to find a census for William Ryan, son of "James and Maria" Ryan.  In case you are wondering how I know the name of the Mother?  The Mothers name was recorded by the Priest who married William in 1864 at St. Mary of the Assumption RC Church in Burnley, Lancashire (Parish of the Bride)  The record of marriage can be found on website: Lancashire On Line Parish Clerk which I dare say you are familiar with.  Lancashire On Line Parish Clerk records his parents as being "James and Maria" Ryan.

Alas, I have found no such census for 1851 that records William Ryan, son of James and Maria Ryan.  However, what I have found is 1851 census which records "Alfred William Bryan" son of "James and Maria" Bryan.  As you suggested though I will try and find an 1861/71 census to see if Alfred William Bryan is an entirely different person to William Ryan.  If I find such a census record or not I will let you know.

Unfortunately, as I live in California it is not possible for me to visit either PRONI or NLI so I welcome receiving a list of researchers from you at your earliest convenience.  Thank you.  Also, in the meantime, I will try to access the few available records on line via UHF.  Does UHF stand for Ulster Historical Foundation?  I do not mind paying if I get a result.

I look forward to your response.  Thank you.

Waterford

Waterford,

Just pursuing the possibility of the name Ryan being misunderstood, it?s probably worth commenting that the householder was responsible for completing the census returns. So the spelling and other information that you see is normally down to the head of household, not the enumerator. So that tends to reduce the likelihood of there being a misunderstanding. Where the head of household was illiterate, then sometimes one of the children filled it in (having the benefit of a basic education) or sometimes the Parish Priest/Minister did it. (There?s quite a bit of evidence about that). Only when no-one else was available would the enumerator do it. But an enumerator in Liverpool would be well used to Irish accents. Half the population of the city were recent immigrants from Ireland, and so for all these reasons I really think that misunderstanding is unlikely to have led to a name change. I remain of the opinion that the Bryan and Ryan households are different families.

Derriaghy, Ballymoney and Shankill are all parishes in Co Antrim but neither Derriaghy nor Ballymoney are anywhere close to Belfast. Derriaghy is about 10 miles south of Belfast. Ballymoney is about 35 miles north of Belfast. Someone from either of those places would not say they came from Belfast. Shankill is the main parish in Belfast and so that is a possibility. Someone from Shankill would give Belfast as their place of birth.

Regarding finding researchers, both PRONI in Belfast and the National Library have lists of local researchers. Here?s links to their respective lists:

http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/research_and_records_held/can_someone_else_do_research_for_me/independent_commercial_researchers.htm

http://www.nli.ie/en/commission-research.aspx

UHF does stand for the Ulster Historical Foundation. In my opinion it has a very good reputation for integrity etc, but they don?t have all the possible RC parish records on-line, so you might not be able to find the records you need from an on-line search. If, instead, you commission them to do private research in PRONI using the fuller sets of records held there, I would advise you to compare their fees with other researchers to satisfy yourself you are getting best value for your money.

Good luck.

Elwyn

Dear Ahoghill,

Many thanks for your response.  I very much appreciate the geography lesson, now I know that the parish of Shankill serves Belfast.

For the past three days I have tried to find the whereabouts of Alfred William Bryan who was recorded as 9 years old in 1851 census and living with his parents James and Maria Bryan and sibling George age 1.  I managed to track his parents until their death, but alas Alfred William Bryan remains elusive.  I am a member of a Family History Society in England and have requested there help.  My request for help reads as follows:

Hi Everyone,

I am trying to find the census for 1861 and 1871 for Alfred William Bryan.  I have been unsuccessful in tracking these two census records.  I hope someone on this forum has better luck than me.

I can tell you that in 1851 census Alfred William Bryan was age 9 years old living at 2 Davis Street, Birkenhead, with his parents James and Maria Bryan and his sibling George, age 1.  Alfred William Bryan was born in Ireland along with both of his parents.  Sibling George was born in Birkenhead, Cheshire.

In the 1861 census Alfred William Bryan is no longer living at home, but his parents James and Maria are still living in Birkenhead, Cheshire, the name of the street is not legible to me. but the EP is St. John rather than Holy Trinity.  James and Maria's son George is now age 11.  (George has a middle name beginning with letter V).  This census records two additional siblings whose names are:  Henry J and Arthur A.  1861 census records family surname as O'Brien rather than just Bryan.  Henry J. and Arthur A. were also born in Birkenhead, Cheshire.

In 1871 census James and Maria Bryan are still living in Birkenhead, Cheshire.  Street address is not legible but I think they moved again?  Only Henry now age 14, and Arthur now age 12 remain at home.  This census does reveal that James was born in Wicklow, Ireland and Maria was born in Dublin, Ireland.

Alfred William Bryan's Father James passed away First Quarter 1875, age 50.  I cannot find 1881 census for Maria Bryan but in 1891 census Maria, age 69 is living with her youngest son Arthur and his family, wife Agnes, age 29, William, age 8, Sarah A. age 5.  The birth place for Maria I believe is wrong as all previous census records say born in Ireland.  Maria is still living in Birkenhead, Cheshire on 29 Cardigan Street.  Cheshire BMD shows Maria passed away in 1898.  Maria was living in the Sub-district of Tranmere.

As you can see I have tracked the parents of Alfred William Bryan but I am coming up against a brick wall when it comes to tracking down a census for Alfred William.  I hope people on this forum can manage to track down Alfred William for me as I have not found a death for him either.  The thought has already occurred to me that Alfred William Bryan's name was altered or shortened but I have no concrete evidence to back this up?  I thank you for trying to assist me.

I hope to receive a response from FHS either tomorrow or Friday.  If there is a census for Alfred William Bryan to be found in England then I am confident that members of this society will find it, otherwise I will pursue the links you kindly sent me.  Thank you.

Can you please tell me how far apart Dublin is from Wicklow?  How close are Dublin and Wiclow to Belfast?  As Maria was born in Dublin it is possible that marriage of James and Maria occurred in Dublin rather than Wicklow.  Either way can you please tell me which parish covers the County of Wicklow and Dublin?  Thank you for your help thus far, much appreciated.

Regards,

Waterford

Waterford,

That the Bryans you have found gave their places of birth as Wicklow or Dublin again suggests to me that they are a different family. Have you looked for a death for Alfred William in England? Perhaps he died young?

Both Ryan and Bryan are very common surnames in these islands. In the 1911 Irish census there were 30,594 Ryans and 1034 Bryans. In the same census for England & Wales there were 13,868 Ryans and 11,430 Bryans.

Dublin and Wicklow are adjacent counties. Wicklow is immediately south of Dublin, and not unusual to find someone from the one marrying someone from the other.

You ask which parish covers Wicklow. There are 59 parishes in Wicklow. Likewise plenty in Co Dublin. However there is a general county board for each and so I suggest you post there if you don?t have a specific parish.

Belfast to Dublin is around 110 miles. Wicklow to Belfast would be around 125 miles. (Dublin to Liverpool is 135 miles).

Elwyn