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Hello, I have been looking for my Tully roots in Co Roscommon for quite a while.  I am hoping to find information about Thomas Mullowney and Mary Tully, married on 2 Dec 1852 (witnesses John Costello and Eleanor Tully).  I have found records for the births/baptisms of 3 children:  Patrick, 1854 (address Clogher), Margaret 1860, and James 1865 (address Lowberry).

I am interested in this family because I have a DNA match with a descendant of Catherine Mullowney, born 1851, parents James Mullowney and Anne Blighe.  According to this descendant, they lived in a house at Lowberry Cross. Records of Catherine's siblings were found for Brigid -1862 and James -1864 (address Lowberry).  The father James died in 1869 at 40 years old, address Lowberry.  In case naming patterns would help, the children of Catherine (and husband Patrick McGuire of Ballykilleen - son of James McGuire and Ellen Green) were James, Elizabeth, John, Catherine, Mary, Bridget, Ellen, Thomas, Anne, Michael, and Alice.

The objective of all this is to find my Tully family.  There was a John Tully & Co in "Clougher" in 1832 (Tithe books) but no records I could find of this family after that.  Perhaps the Mary Tully (above) was part of that family.  At least some of my Tully family left Co Roscommon probably around 1830 and settled a little west in Co Mayo.

In summary, I am hoping that someone would know of this Thomas Mullowney/Tully family and be able to give me more information or would have other ideas about how to find more information. 

I have also seen that a lot of records I have looked up of children born of the same family in the 1880s sometimes have the address Lowberry and sometimes Clogher.  The same for Altore, sometimes Altore and sometimes Lowberry.  One record gave the address as "Altore Lowberry". On the histpop website, it shows no houses or people in Lowberry in 1881, 1891 and 1901.  Can anyone explain this to me?

Thank you very much.  And many thanks again to Martin Meehen who helped me enormously a few years ago when I was starting my research with my Tully family of Annagh parish, Co Mayo.

Sincerely, Cindy

CMST

Tuesday 21st Feb 2023, 09:58PM

Message Board Replies

  • See Lowberry townland map and info here:

     

    https://www.townlands.ie/roscommon/castlereagh/kiltullagh/kiltullagh/lo…

    Note that Altore and Upper/Lower Clogher townlands border on Lowberry.

    Patricia

    Wednesday 22nd Feb 2023, 01:19AM
  • The following Mullowney heads of household appeared in Griffith's Valuation of Roscommon in 1855. From rootsireland.

     

     SourceSurnameFirst NameTownlandParishCounty 

     GriffithMulloonyAnneCloonslanorCloonfinloughCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyJamesClogher UpperKiltullaghCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyMartinAghaderryTibohineCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyMaryClogher UpperKiltullaghCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyMichaelLiscoffy (Kelly)AthleagueCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyPatk.BarnacawleyTibohineCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyPatrickCloonfellivKilkeevinCo. Roscommon 

     GriffithMullowneyThomasClogher UpperKiltullaghCo. Roscommon

    Patricia

    Wednesday 22nd Feb 2023, 01:26AM
  • Hello Patricia.  I just wrote you a reply and clicked on "Save as draft".  Now I can't find it!  Could you please advise me as to where it is so I can send it to you?  Thank you!  Cindy

    CMST

    Wednesday 22nd Feb 2023, 12:23PM
  • I'm sorry that I can't help with this. I'm a member of Irelandxo and often assist other members. You would have to contact Irelandxo for assistance.

    Patricia

    Wednesday 22nd Feb 2023, 02:20PM
  • Hello Cindy,

    There will not be a baptism record for the Mary Tully who married Thomas Mullowney in 1852.

    The townlands of Clogher and Lowberry were in the Civil Parish of Kiltullagh, as well as the Catholic Parish of Kiltullagh. You’ll also see the name of this parish spelled Kiltollagh and Kiltulla in some records.

    The National Library of Ireland shows the Kiltulla baptism records are available from 11 September 1839 to 26 December 1880, though there are gaps in these registers. There are some Kiltulla marriage from 1821 to 1829. These are Deanery marriages for the Diocese of Tuam, Roscommon, which also cover marriages in several other Catholic parishes in County Roscommon.

    There is a gap in the Deanery marriage registers after 1829, until they pick up again on 25 August 1839, and are available until 4 April 1881.

    Having married in 1852, Mary Tully, as well as her husband Thomas Mullowney would have been born and baptized before 1839.

    To view the availability of the Kiltulla Catholic Parish baptisms and marriages, as well as a map of the Catholic Parish of Kiltulla, go to the National Library of Ireland website at: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1073

    The government in Ireland did not record births, marriages, and deaths for all religious denominations until 1864, and so there won’t be a civil registration birth record for Mary Tully, or a civil registration marriage record for her parents. Likewise for Thomas Mullowney and his parents.

    The Find My Past (FMP) website shows only six marriages in the Kiltulla Catholic Parish between the years 1841 and 1865, but none for the time period 1821 to 1829.

    The earliest marriage is for John Tully and Mary Gilfoyle, who were married on 3 April 1841. You can view the FMP transcription of the marriage after establishing a free account by clicking on:
    https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1461195%2F1

    The next marriage is for Thomas Mullowney and Maria Tully. This is the marriage you had mentioned in your post to Ireland Reaching Out. Your date of marriage for them is 2 December 1852, but the transcription gives their marriage date of 2 November 1852:
    https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1005003%2F2

    Your date of marriage is the correct one, as I found a copy of the original marriage record at the National Library of Ireland website showing the marriage was 2 December 1852. See:
    https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632060#page/172/mode/1up

    There are two facing pages of the marriage register. The marriage for Thomas and Maria is the 4th entry down from the top of the right-hand page. The marriage record shows that Thomas and Maria paid the Kiltulla Parish 1 Pound and 4 Shillings for the marriage ceremony.

    The FMP website shows the next four Kiltulla Catholic Parish marriages are for:

    Pat Tully and Maria Cussane on 4 May 1853

    Ellen Tully and Thomas Burke on 28 January 1857

    Michael Tully and Margaret Raftery on 16 February 1865. The transcription gives the residence of Michael and Margaret as, “Chnaghs,” though I could find no such town by that name in County Roscommon.

    Pat Tully and Bridget Glynn on 25 February 1865. The transcription shows the residence of Pat and Bridget at the time of marriage was Cloonalough.

    The earliest surname Tully baptism in the Kiltulla Catholic Parish is for Margaret Tully. She was baptized on 21 November 1841. Her parents are Owen Tully and Mary Donnellan. See the FMP baptism transcription: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F6512765

    If you access the FMP website for the Kiltulla Catholic Parish, you’ll see 27 more Tully baptism transcriptions up to the year 1880.

    BAPTISMS FOR THE MULLOWNEY CHILDREN

    You mentioned in your Ireland Reaching Out post you found the births/baptisms for three children of Thomas Mullowney and Mary Tully. These are for Patrick, 1854 (address Clogher), Margaret 1860, and James 1865 (address Lowberry).

    I found the FMP baptism transcription for another child of Thomas and Mary. This is for their daughter Bridget, who was baptized in the Kiltulla Catholic Parish on 13 January 1856. See the transcription:
    https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FBAP%2F4500378

    A copy of the original Baptism record for Bridget from the National Library of Ireland is on the left-hand register page, 2nd entry down from the top: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632060#page/105/mode/1up

    Bridget’s godparents are Pat Tully and Maria Cussane.

    Your records also shows that James Mullowney and Anne Blighe had children Catherine, 1851; Brigid, 1862; and James, 1864.

    I uncovered the FMP baptism transcriptions and copies of original baptisms for these three children, as well as the baptisms for five of their siblings. The last name of the children is not always transcribed as Mullowney. You’ll see the spelling Mullowny in four baptisms, Mullowney in one baptism, Mullony in two baptisms, and Moloney in one baptism.

    In chronological order, the baptisms are for:

    Catherine Mullowny, 1851
    Pat Mullowny, 1853
    Bridgt Mullowny, 1855
    Maria Mullowny, 1857
    Martin Mullowney, 1859
    Bridget Mullony, 1862
    James Mullony, 1864
    John Mulloney, 1868
    ----

    There are two baptisms for a child named Bridget. This means that Bridget, who was baptized in 1855 had died, and that James and Anne had named another child after her in 1864.

    If you would like the FMP baptism transcriptions, and copies of original baptism records for Pat, Bridget (1855), Maria, Martin, and John, I can send them to you in a follow-up reply at your request.

    You had referenced James Mullowney’s birth record. He was born the first year that births were recorded by the government in 1864. His older siblings were born before the commencement civil registration in Ireland.

    I looked for James’s civil registration birth record at the free irishgenealogy.ie website but initially didn’t find it. I checked for his birth in other County Roscommon registration districts but without success.

    I then then remembered from past experience with birth records at irishgenealogy.ie, that the first name of the child was not always recorded. This happened to be the case for James. The un-named birth of a male child with the last name of Mullowny took place in Lowberry, Parish of Kiltulla, on September 10, 1864. His father is James Mullowny, a “Tenant,” who was living in Lowberry. His mother is Ann Mullowny, formerly Bligh. The father James reported the birth to the registrar. James signed the birth register with “his + mark,” signifying he could not write. The name of the registrar looks like Wm Cappaidge, who recorded the birth in the Castlerea Registration District on September 17, 1864.

    James’s birth record is the last entry in the register at number 206
    https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

    I also found the birth record for John “Mullowny” at the irishgenealogy.ie website. He was born in Lowberry, Parish of Kiltulla, on January 20, 1868. His father James is a “Landholder” residing in Lowberry. John’s mother is Anne Mullowny, formerly Bligh. The person who was present at the birth and who reported the birth to the registrar was Catherine Mullowny of Lowberry. She signed the birth register with “her x mark.” The registrar, William Cappaidge, recorded the birth in the Castlerea Registration District on February 3, 1868. John’s birth is number 293 in the register:
    https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

    Unfortunately, the birth record doesn’t mention how the informant, Catherine Mullowny, is related to John’s parents, James and Anne. She could be James’s sister or perhaps his mother.

    GRIFFITHS VALUATION

    In her reply of 22 February 2023, Patricia had kindly provided those Mullowneys recorded in an Irish property tax record know as Griffiths Valuation. The last person in the list if occupiers she cites is Thomas Mullowney. His lease in the townland of Clogher Upper, Civil Parish of Kiltullagh.

    Griffiths Valuation was enumerated in the 32 counties of Ireland between 1847 and 1864. The valuation for Clogher Upper and surrounding townlands in the Civil Parish of Kiltullagh, was completed by the year 1857, the same year that Thomas and Anne Bligh Mullowney’s daughter Maria was baptized.

    Unlike a census, Griffiths Valuation did not enumerate individual members of a family, such as husband, wife, and children in a household residence. Those named in the valuation were individuals who paid to lease property, such as land, houses, and outbuildings. Each person who paid to lease the property was called an “Occupier.” The other person listed in Griffiths Valuation was the person who owned the property, or who worked as the middleman collecting the rent for the owner. This middleman was called the “Immediate Lessor.”

    You can access Griffiths Valuation transcriptions and original copies for free at the Ask About Ireland website link at: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml

    A copy of the original Griffiths Valuation for Clogher Upper is attached to this reply.

    Griffiths Valuation not only shows that Thomas Mullowney leased property in Clogher Upper, but also shows that a James Mullowney and Mary Mullowney leased property there as well.

    Griffiths Valuation shows that Thomas Mullowney’s lease was located at Map References 8Aa and 8B, which indicates he leased two different properties.

    At 8Aa he leased a house and over 2 acres of land from an Immediate Lessor named Arthur O’Conor. The land was valued at 1 Pound and 10 Shillings. The house was valued at 10 Shillings.

    At Map Reference 8B he leased over 11 acres of land valued at 3 Pounds. The total value for the two properties he leased was 5 Pounds.

    James Mullowney and Mary Mullowney leased their own houses, but also leased over 12 acres of land in common with one another. The land for each was valued at 3 Pounds and 5 Shillings. Their houses were valued at 5 Shillings. The total valuation for their property was 3 Pounds and 10 Shillings each.

    I’ve attached a Griffiths Valuation Map for Clogher Upper showing the locations of Thomas’s lease and the leases for James and Mary Mullowney. You can enlarge and pan the map for a better view.

    At the bottom of the map you’ll see Clogher Upper in large print. Thomas’s lease is number 8 on the map. Above the 8 you’ll see the letters a and b. Just to the right of the letter a, and just above the letter b, is a small, dark oblong box at a right angle to the red boundary line, which also is a road. The oblong box represents Thomas’s house. The house and land in this area are just below the border with Lowberry, shaded in Grey.

    I think it’s possible that Thomas thought his house was located in Lowberry rather than Clogher Upper, and that’s why the 1864 birth for James and 1868 birth for John, show the family living in Lowberry.

    To the right of John’s lease at number 8 on the map is the townland of Clogher Lower, though the full name of the town extends past the edge of the page.

    To the left of Thomas’s lease you’ll see Map References 7A and 7 B. This is the section of Clogher Upper where James and Mary Mullowney’s houses were located and where the land they held in common was situated.

    The following link will take you to a Google Map of Clogher Upper and Lowberry: https://rebrand.ly/j63rwyo

    On the map you’ll see a road called the L6506 highlighted in blue. This road ties into a crossroads heading north. The road running east to west is the R327. The other road highlighted in blue heading north from the R327, is the L1602. Where the three roads meet at the crossroads was the location of Thomas Mullowney’s house, just as it’s represented on the Griffiths Valuation Map.

    The following Google Street View shows a house where the L6506, the R327, and the L1602 meet. Thomas’s house would have been where this house is located, or very near to where his house was located. Across the road from the house, heading north, is Lowberry: https://rebrand.ly/6s7flqw

    A Google Satellite View shows where the L6506 and the L1602 T-junction into the R327 Road. Compare the location of the house on the corner of the roads in the satellite view, with the house on the Griffiths Valuation Map: https://rebrand.ly/zmdlzrr

    Also concerning Lowberry, Griffiths Valuation for 1857 shows that no one had leased a house in the townland. A man named John Law Hackett however, did lease over 106 acres of land in Lowberry, valued at 60 Pounds. The Immediate Lessor of the property was Martin McDonnell. See the attachment for Lowberry in Griffiths Valuation.

    Also attached is a magnified view of Lowberry on the Griffiths Valuation map.

    The Landed Estates website gives more information about Lowberry, noting that a mansion had formerly stood there. See: https://landedestates.ie/property/1298

    The Landed Estates information about Lowberry also mentions that no buildings were recorded there in Griffiths Valuation. The Griffiths Valuation Map for Lowberry does show structures in the middle of the townland but these must be the ruins of the mansion cited in the Landed Estates description noted above

    A search of the 1901 and 1911 Irish census enumerations from the National Archives of Ireland, do not record a town named Lowberry in County Roscommon.

    This indicates that the reason you couldn’t find people in Lowberry in 1881, 1891, and 1901 is that there were no houses there for them to live in.

    TULLYS IN GRIFFITHS VALUATION

    Griffiths Valuation shows an Anne Tully and a Thomas Tully leasing property in the Townland of Ballybane Upper, Civil Parish of Kiltullagh. See the Griffiths Valuation attachment.

    Anne Tully leased a house and over 15 acres of land from an Immediate Lessor named Wm. R.W. Sandford, at Map Reference 6a. The land was valued at 5 Pounds and 10 Shillings. The house was valued at 10 Shillings. The total valuation for Anne Tully was 6 Pounds.

    Thomas Tully leased two parcels in Ballybane Upper. The first, at Map Reference 7A, was for over 2 acres of land valued at 15 Shillings. The second parcel, at Map Reference 7Ba, includes a house and over 6 acres of land. The land was valued at 2 Pounds and 5 Shillings. The house was valued at 10 Shillings. The total valuation for both properties was 3 Pounds and 10 Shillings.

    The Griffiths Valuation Map for Ballybane Upper is attached to this reply. You’ll see that Map reference 6 runs diagonally across the center of the map between two red boundary lines. To the northeast of the number six is a lower case letter a, also within the two red boundary lines. This is where Anne Tully’s house and subdivision of land was situated within Ballybane Upper.

    You’ll also notice that Map Reference 7A and 7B are not contiguous properties, but are separated by Map Reference 6. Thomas Tully’s house and over 6 acres of land is located at 7Ba.

    The second parcel of Thomas’s land, over 2 acres, is at Map reference 7A.

    A Google Map shows the location of Ballybane Upper, Lowberry, and Clogher Upper. Cindy, you had mentioned the townland of Altore. The Google Map also shows Altore, which is located between Lowberry and Ballybane Upper: https://rebrand.ly/2t2jcds

    A Google Street View shows the L1602 road through Ballybane Upper. The properties of Anne and Thomas Tully would have been located on either side of this road, though I couldn’t pinpoint the exact locations: https://rebrand.ly/se9fii0

    Concerning the townland of Altore, Civil Parish of Kiltullagh, I looked for any Tullys and Mullowneys leasing property there, but found none recorded in the Tithe Applotment Books (1832), or Griffiths Valuation (1857). I also looked for Mullowneys and Tullys in the 1901 and 1911 Irish census returns, but none were recorded in Altore.

    With Kind Regards,

    Dave Boylan

    SOURCES

    National Library of Ireland
    Find My Past
    irishgenealogy.ie
    Reply from IrelandXO Volunteer Patricia on 22 February 2023
    Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation
    Ask About Ireland: Griffiths Valuation Maps
    Google Maps
    Google Street Views
    Google Satellite View
    Landed Estates website: https://landedestates.ie/
    National Archives of Ireland: 1901 and 1911 Census

    davepat

    Saturday 25th Feb 2023, 07:19PM
  • Hello Dave,

    I just saw your wonderful reply to my search. There is a lot of information in there so it will take me a little while to go through it all.  Thank you very very much!!

    As I think you understood, I am hoping, eventually, to find a way to link Catherine Mullowney (daughter of James Mullowney + Anne Bligh) with the Tullys.  I have a DNA link with her great-granddaughter (Maureen in the U.S.).  The family story is that the Tullys came from Co roscommon before settling in Cornacarta, Annagh Parish, Co Mayo probably in the 1830s. (They are on a tenant list of 1851 in Cornacarta.) My great-great-grandfather Patrick Tully would have been born in Co Roscommon. His son, my great-grandfather Patrick Tully (Jr) named his 1st son Owen.  Since his own father was also Patrick, I don't know if Owen would have been an uncle or Patrick Jr's grandfather. Someone told me once that the name Owen was another form of "John" in the past so maybe I should be looking for John instead of Owen! Thank you for indicating various Tullys in the records.  I hope I can link them together.

    Your information has already confirmed a question I had, that Catherine and Patrick Mullowney (children of James Mullowney + Anne Bligh) were indeed siblings (from the birth record you found for Patrick Mullowney born 1853). Maureen had told me this but since I hadn't found a birth record for him, I was in doubt about it.  She also told me that Catherine and Patrick married the siblings Patrick and Ellen McGuire of Ballykilleen.   Maureen also told me that the house Catherine Mullowney was born in is still standing at Lowberry Cross.

    Patrick Mullowney (+ wife Ellen McGuire) were living in House No. 28 in Clogher Upper in 1901.  I'm wondering if I'm correct to assume that this house was in the same place as where his parents (James Mullowney + Anne Blighe) lived in Griffith's, Lot 7a, Clogher Upper. I'm also wondering if James Mullowney (Anne Bligh) and Thomas Mullowney (Mary Tully) were brothers!

    Well, I have the impression that I'll find some answers to my questions after I go through your post more thoroughly!   I know that Maureen will be very excited to hear about all this too.  I may have more questions to ask you after I go through your post.  Many many thanks again for your help!

    Sincerely,

    Cindy

     

     

    CMST

    Tuesday 28th Feb 2023, 10:51PM
  • Hello Cindy,

    Many thanks for your reply, it is very much appreciated. In going over the Mullowney research I too had wondered if Thomas and James Mullowney may have been brothers. But, unfortunately, the Kiltulla baptism records do not go back far enough in time to have recorded their individual baptisms in order to determine if they had shared the same parents.

    I also realized I had not looked for the church marriage for James Mullowney and Anne Bligh, and so, after receiving your reply, I went back to the FMP website to see if they had been married in the Kiltulla Catholic Parish. I found they were not. But, marriages took place in the bride’s parish, and so I thought it likely that Anne’s parish may not have been Kiltulla, but perhaps a nearby Catholic Parish. These nearby parishes include Annagh and Bekan in County Mayo, and Kilkeevan in County Roscommon. Two Catholic parishes in County Galway also border Kiltulla. These are Dunmore and Boyounagh.

    The Civil Parish and Catholic Parish of Annagh would have been where your Tullys had settled in the 1830s, according to your family stories.

    I looked for the marriage of James Mullowney and Anne Bligh in these other Catholic parishes and found it. First names in the marriage record are in the Latin. The transcription from FMP shows that Jocobum Mullowney and Annam Bly were married in the Kilkeevan, Roscommon Catholic Parish on 12 February 1850. You can view the marriage transcription at the FMP link: https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1161358%2F1

    A copy of the original Kilkeevan marriage record is the 7th entry up from the bottom of the left-hand register page at: https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633928#page/193/mode/1up

    I couldn’t make out the first name of one of the witnesses to the marriage, but their last name was Rodgers. The second witness was Thomas Maher.

    See the Catholic Parish map for Kilkeevan and Kiltulla at the National Library of Ireland link: https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0551

    The National Library of Ireland page also shows that Kilkeevan baptisms go back to 15 November 1804, but there are some gaps in these registers. Marriages are available from 17 November 1804. There are gaps in the marriage registers as well.

    I looked for Anne Bligh’s FMP Kilkeevan baptism transcription but unfortunately, didn’t find it.

    In relation to your question about Patrick Mullowney and his wife Ellen McGuire Mullowney: There is a good chance they were living in the same house in Clogher Upper in 1901 as Patrick’s parents, James and Anne Bligh Mullowney, had previously occupied in Clogher Upper.

    I know my own great grandparents, Timothy Harrington and Ellen Foley, had resided in the same thatched cottage in Kenmare, Kerry, for over 50 years.

    Don’t hesitate to write with any questions you may have, or if there is a specific ancestor you’d like me to look for.

    Thank you again Cindy,

    Dave

    davepat

    Friday 3rd Mar 2023, 03:34PM
  • Hi Dave,

    First of all, thank you for all the records you've sent me.  I never would have thought of looking for the Mullowny/Blighe marriage outside of Kiltullagh parish!  I currently have a subscription to rootsireland (which is soon running out) and I didn't find this record there. 

    Continuing my search for Tullys in Kiltullagh parish, I looked at the Poverty Relief Loans records. I could see these records at the Family Search site but not the original images with the guarantors.  In Altor townland, Patrick and John Tully were borrowers from 1840 to 1847.  There was another John Tully as borrower in Clogher Lower (no date).  (Perhaps he was of the family of John Tully & Co in "Clougher" in the Tithes books, 1832.) There was an Owen Tully of Kiltullagh townland as loan borrower (several times from 1840 to 1846). It's too bad I can't find any of these Tully loan borrowers listed afterwards (such as in Griffiths).  I assume landholders didn't apply for these loans?

    From the information you gave me about the birth of Margaret Tully 1841 to parents Owen Tully and Mary Donnellan, I looked in rootsireland and found this marriage record with the address given as Altore!  So, it seems that there were at least 3 Tullys  living in Altore in the 1840s (Patrick, John and Owen). 

    I searched for Tully maiden names from the 1901 census in Altore, Clogher Upper, Clogher Lower and Kiltullagh townlands (by looking at the children's birth records) and didn't find any.  I happened to find the family of Ellen Tully + Thomas Burke (deceased), an 1857 marriage you told me about, living in neighboring Pollanarroo in 1901.

    I know there is a line of Tullys in Ballybane Upper but I haven't investigated them very much mostly because my relative in Co Mayo wasn't inclined to think that the Balllybane Tullys were the same family as ours but I don't know if she is correct about this.

    About my Co Mayo Tully family, I would like to clarify that they are first seen living in Cornacarta on the tenant list of the Logboy estate sale of 1851/52.  However, I don't really know when they arrived there.  My relative who still lives there thinks that my Gr-Grandfather, Patrick Tully(Jr) was born in Cornacarta (I assume around 1830/32), but I don't know that.  He was married in Ballyhaunis in 1854 to Margaret Grogan and is listed in Cornacarta in Griffith's Valuation (1856).  The family story is that 2 Tully brothers came to Cornacarta from Co Roscommon and one of them married a Narry (or Neary) girl who was living there.  She was a daughter of James Narry who is seen in "Curnacartha" in the Tithe Applotment Books (James Narry & Co. 1833).  The old Narry house (in a place which used to be called Ballynarry) eventually became the Tully house. It is still there, maintained but not lived in. It hasn't been thatched for a long time.  (It's interesting about your grandparents house in Kerry and that it always had a thatched roof!)  

    One of the 2 Tully brothers who moved to Cornacarta was my Gr-gr-grandfather Patrick Tully (Sr) . His brother was probably Bartly Tully Sr.  I don't know the name of Patrick (Sr)'s wife (although her 1st name could have been Catherine).  I also don't know the names of Patrick (Sr)'s children apart from my Gr-grandfather, Patrick (Jr).  However, I have wondered if a brother of Patrick Jr may have been John Tully who also lived in Cornacarta and married Catherine Hosty in 1847.  I'm thinking this because both John and Patrick (Jr) named their 1st son Owen and 2nd son Patrick.  However, I don't know who the relative Owen might be.  (I wondered if Owen Tully of Altore could have been an uncle to John and Patrick Jr.).  (In my search for Bartholomew Tullys in Kiltullagh parish, I only found one.  This was the 2nd son of John Tully/Mary Gilfoyle, married 1841, who was born in 1847 address Lavallyroe.  They had an earlier son, Michael, born in 1844. They were no longer there in Griffiths.)

    What you told me about the mansion ruins in Lowberry is interesting.  I looked at the Lowberry estate link you sent.  I was wondering if maybe the neighboring townlands like Clogher (upper and lower) and Altore used to be part of the Lowberry estate.  That could explain why so many of the records from these 3 townlands give Lowberry as their address!  For some reason, some of the birth records I looked at from the 1901 Altore census gave their address as "Land Altore".

    So, it seems there were quite a few Tullys in the Lowberry area but nothing really definite to connect them to my Tullys in Co Mayo. I also haven't found the Mullowney-Tully DNA link.  One thing I'm wondering about is that the Tullys who were around Lowberry in the 1840s don't show up in Griffiths (except for Michael Tully of Rathlena) or later in 1901.  I know these were the years of the Great Famine and other migration issues so I'm supposing that this has influenced the lack of information.

    You said in your last response that you could look for an ancestor for me.  I was wondering if you could take a try at searching for the marriages of Patrick Tully and Bartly Tully in Kiltullagh parish (or nearby?). I assume these marriages would have been before 1830.  You said that there were early "Deanery" marriages for Tuam which I don't know anything about! Otherwise, I would appreciate any ideas you might have as to how to proceed from here.

    Many thanks again for your time and interest.

    Sincerely, Cindy

    CMST

    Monday 13th Mar 2023, 06:07PM
  • Hello Cindy,

    I found only one pre-1830 marriage record for a Patrick Tully in County Roscommon, showing he married Catherine Nolan on 14 February 1828 in the Catholic Parish of St. Peter’s, Athlone. See the marriage transcription at the FMP website link:
    https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=IRE%2FPRS%2FMAR%2F1230961%2F1

    St. Peter’s, Athlone is in the southeastern portion of County Roscommon, on the border with County Offaly (formerly Kings County), and County Westmeath. Kiltulla, as you know, is on the border with County Galway, and County Mayo, several miles northwest of St. Peter’s, Athlone.

    I also looked for pre-1830 Roscommon marriage records for grooms named Bartholomew/Bart/Bat, etc., Tully, but found none at all in County Roscommon for that time period.

    I haven’t come across the term “Deanery Marriages,” too often, but for an explanation of what a Catholic deanery was and is, go to the aleteia.org and catholicculture.org website links below:
    https://aleteia.org/2019/04/08/what-is-a-deanery-in-the-catholic-church/
    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id…
    ----

    Concerning the Tullys in Altor, Roscommon in Griffiths Valuation, they may have lived in Altor but if they didn’t pay to lease a house, office, or land, they were not recorded in the valuation. They may have been living in the home of another Occupier in Altor.

    After going over your last post I went to the FamilySearch website for the Ireland, Poverty Relief Funds, 1810-1887, to duplicate the information that you found.

    I then thought that perhaps the subscription Ancestry.com would also have the Ireland, Poverty Relief Funds collection, but found another collection called the, “Ireland, Sustainability Loan Fund, 1812-1868.”

    I have to admit I don’t know the differences between the two funds. I wrote the National Archives in England to ask what the differences were. The National Archives in England, not Ireland, hold these records, as these loan fun records were compiled when England ruled Ireland in the 19th century.

    I looked for Tullys in the Ireland Sustainability Loan Fund, but did not locate any that were living in Altor, but did find an Owen Tully recorded in the loan fund living in Kiltullagh, Roscommon. This fund is subtitled the “Ballinlough Charitable Loan.” See the indexes for Owen Tully below:

    Ireland, Sustainability Loan Fund, 1812-1868

    Name: Owen Tully
    Role: Borrower
    Residence Date: 5 Mar 1841
    Residence Place: Kiltullagh, Roscommon, Ireland
    Fund: BALLINLOUGH

    Name: Owen Tully
    Role: Borrower
    Residence Date: 9 Jul 1841
    Residence Place: Kiltullagh, Roscommon, Ireland
    Fund: BALLINLOUGH
    Others on Loan:
    Name Role
    Owen Tully Borrower
    John Rody First Guarantor
    Michl Madden Second Guarantor

    Name: Owen Tully
    Role: Borrower
    Residence Date: 3 Dec 1841
    Residence Place: Kiltullagh, Roscommon, Ireland
    Fund: BALLINLOUGH

    Name: Owen Tully
    Role: Borrower
    Residence Date: 17 Jun 1842
    Residence Place: Kiltullagh, Roscommon, Ireland
    Fund: BALLINLOUGH
    Others on Loan:
    Name Role
    Owen Tully Borrower
    John Cornwell First Guarantor
    Peter Moran Second Guarantor

    Source Citation
    The National Archives of the UK; Kew, Surrey, England; Irish Reproductive Loan Fund: Records. Local Associations.; Series Number: T 91/4; Piece Description: Piece 004: Ballinlough Security Note Book, 1 (1840 - 1842); Piece Number: Piece 004
    ----

    Ancestry.com has copies of the original loan fund documents. You can see the loan fund for Owen Tully dated 9 July 1841 at the following link: https://rebrand.ly/mirr1mh

    Owen’s loan fund documentation is the first entry at the top of the right-hand page at No. 808. It shows that he borrowed 4 Pounds. It appears he paid the loan the back over the course of July 16 to November 17, 1842. He paid 4 Shillings each month except for his last payment in November for 8 Shillings.

    The next link will bring you to a copy of the original loan for 17 June 1842. The entry for Owen Tully is once again at the top of the right-hand page, No. 449. You’ll notice that no “Repayment” dates are recorded for Owen, or for any of the other borrowers who took out loans that are recorded on both pages: https://rebrand.ly/xjxhbni

    Cindy, I can’t say for sure that those who applied for Ireland, Poverty Relief Funds, or Ireland, Sustainability Loan Fund, hadn’t at one time also leased homes and lands in the towns where they lived.

    A lot of the occupiers recorded in Griffiths Valuation were later evicted by their landlords, especially those occupiers whose leases were valued under 5 Pounds. In this case, the owner of the property was required to pay the tax. To get away with not having to pay a tax on a farmer’s house, some landlords would evict the farmer, and tumble his house.

    Genealogist John Grenham explains it this way:

    “The individual in economic occupation of the property was responsible for payment of the local taxation based on Griffith’s, with one exception: tenants with a holding valued at less than £5 annually were exempt, but their landlord was liable for the tax. This liability was a powerful incentive for landlords to get rid of smaller tenants in any way they could and certainly contributed to the wave of evictions that took place throughout the second half of the nineteenth century.”
    ----

    Griffiths Valuation for the townlands located in the Civil Parish of Kiltullagh, Roscommon, was completed by 1857. This was 15 years after Owen Tully’s last loan in 1842. But Owen Tully was not recorded in any townland in the Kiltullagh Parish in Griffiths Valuation, at least not that I could find.

    The other borrowers in the Ireland Sustainability Loan Fund in the Civil parish of Kiltullagh were John Joice, Pat McHugh, and John Bligh.

    I’ll send a follow-up reply as soon as I hear back from the National Archives of Ireland.

    Thank you for your reply Cindy.

    Dave

    davepat

    Thursday 16th Mar 2023, 04:16PM
  • Hi again, Dave,

    Again, thank you for the research you've done for me and the information you found about the poverty relief loans.  Surprising that there were two different names for these funds.  I also appreciate the explanation about tenants being evicted if their holdings had a low value.  Very sad, really.

    I have previously seen that there are a lot of Tully records from St Peter's Athlone.  I haven't much investigated these because this seems too far away from Annagh parish.  In your experience, do you think I am wrong about this?

    There are a couple of other things I wanted to ask you about.  On rootsireland, I found a civil birth record for "William" Tully, 04 Aug 1865, in Ballindine district, Co Mayo.  Address = Ballynary (the old name of my grandfather's homeplace in part of Cornacarta).  The father was Patrick Tully and mother "Mary" Grogan.  I think this record is for someone in my family.  However, there weren't any Williams in my grandfather's family, as far as I know.  The other thing is that his mother was named Margaret (and not Mary).  So, could you please tell me how I could see the original of this record?  Maybe there were transcription errors, or maybe the writer of this record made an error. 

    Since I posted last, I remembered some baptism records which I had found previously (on rootsireland) for a Tully family but I couldn't identify who this family was in the extended Tullys.  This is a family with the father Bartly Tully and mother Mary Mullowney in Annagh RC parish, Co Mayo.  I found 3 children for them:  Mary (bap 1852), Anne (bap 1856), and Catherine (bap 1859).  The only address I found was on Mary's baptism record, "Carngard".   I haven't found any townlands called Carngard in Annagh parish so I was thinking this could have been written incorrectly.  I have seen many incorrect spellings of townlands in the records, some of which are hardly recognizable.  So, I thought that maybe Carngard was an abbreviated and phonetically spelled version of  "Cornacarta".  Would you have a way to find any other records for this family?  I did not find a marriage record either. 

    Many thanks again for your help.

    Cindy

    CMST

    Wednesday 22nd Mar 2023, 09:36PM
  • Hi Cindy,

    Many thanks for writing back with your questions.

    I’m not sure how to answer your question about the St. Peter’s Athlone Tullys, as I don’t have enough information about the family. I can only mention what I would do.

    First I would find as much information about my direct Tully line in those places where I know my Tullys had lived. When I exhausted that research, I would probably want to look into records for those Tullys who lived in or near St. Peter’s Athlone to see if there was a possible connection. How much time I would spend on this research would depend on what records I found, or didn’t find.

    I would not want to say that there is no possibility the Tullys of the Clogher area, Roscommon, were not related to Tullys in St. Peter’s Athlone, and then later, find out the opposite were true.

    Concerning the birth record for William Tully that you had mentioned:
    This was a bit of a challenge, as I didn’t initially find a civil registration birth record at the irishgenealogy.ie website for a William Tully born on 4 August 1865.

    This made me resort to just looking for Tully birth in 1865 in the District of Ballindine, which also covers Claremorris, County Mayo.

    You are absolutely correct Cindy, in noting that the birth record in question may not have been transcribed correctly by RootsIreland. But I can’t blame the transcriber, as the handwriting in the birth record can be very misleading.

    One of the reasons I didn’t initially find the birth record is that the child’s first name is abbreviated, not spelled out.

    Here is the birth record so that you can see this. The birth is number 368 in the register: https://rebrand.ly/u4r5wxd

    At first glance, the initials for the first name of the child look like Wl. But, I don’t recall the name William being abbreviated as Wl in Irish records. It is normally abbreviated as Wm.

    In some records it’s hard to determine a capital letter W from a capital letter M. In the case of this birth record, the child’s first name is abbreviated, “Ml,” for Michael. The child’s full name is Michael Tully, not William Tully.

    On first glance too, it looks like Michael’s mother is Mary. Again in some records it’s hard to determine the between a lower case y, and a lower case g. In this case it is a lower case g, for Margaret, not Mary.

    In the very last column of the birth record is the name of the registrar who recorded Michael’s birth. His name looks like D.B. Gan. It is actually D.B. Egan. Look at the letter g in Egan’s name. It looks just like the letter g in Margaret Tully’s first name, although D.B. Egan enlarged his handwriting when he recorded his name in the birth record.

    I also found the birth index for Michael Tully at the irishgenealogy.ie website, which confirms the child’s first name is Michael:

    Name MICHAEL TULLY
    Date of Birth 1865
    Group Registration ID 7431949
    SR District/Reg Area Claremorris
    Sex see register entry
    Mother's Birth Surname see register entry
    ----

    So again Cindy, you were absolutely correct about there possibly being a transcription error in this birth record. But you can see why the transcriber had transcribed the record showing the child was William Tully and that his mother was Mary and not Margaret.

    RootsIreland is a very good site, but only provides transcriptions of baptism and birth records. That’s why I like to use the free irishgenealogy.ie website, as you get an index as well as a copy of the original birth record, and not just a transcription.

    I used to subscribe to RootsIreland, but it got to be very expensive. I’m not saying you shouldn’t subscribe to RootsIreland, as it does provide valuable information about a lot of birth, baptism, marriage, and death records for the 32 counties of Ireland. In addition, many of the volunteers at Ireland Reaching Out use RootsIreland.

    In the future, when you uncover a civil registration birth, marriage, or death record at RootsIreland, also access the same record at the free irishgenealogy.ie website, and look for any errors in transcription.

    Likewise, if you find a church baptism, marriage, or burial/death transcription at RootsIreland, also look for the same record at the Find My Past (FMP) website. FMP is traditionally a subscriber site, but does offer some free collections. One of these free collections is for Irish Catholic Parish Church baptisms, marriages, and some burials for all 32 counties of Ireland. Most of the church records cover the 19th century, but some go back to the 18th and even 17th century. Some also cover the early years of the 20th century.

    The church records you find at the FMP website are also transcriptions, but each baptism, marriage, and available death transcription is linked to a copy of the original record held by the National Library of Ireland. The original church records at the National Library of Ireland are also free to access.

    Speaking of which, I looked for Michael Tully’s baptism transcription at the FMP website but didn’t find it. After some further research I found that the Annagh Catholic Parish baptism records for the years 1864 through 1867 are not available at the National Library of Ireland. That’s why FMP doesn’t have a transcription of Michael’s birth.

    I don’t know why the baptism records for these years are not available.

    THE MARY TULLY BAPTISM

    Cindy, once again you are correct in noting you thought Mary’s birthplace was likely Cornacarta in her 1853 Annagh Catholic Parish baptism record.

    I found direct evidence for this as her father Barley Tully is recorded in Griffiths Valuation leasing land and a house in Cornacarta from an Immediate Lessor named John Nolan Ferral. Griffiths Valuation for Cornacarta was completed by 1853, though the Griffiths Valuation men who compiled the information about land and houses in Cornacarta, may have been there in 1852, which is the same year that Mary Tully was born.

    Bartley, along with Pat Tully Sen, and Pat Tully Jun, leased over 45 acres of land in common. The portion of land that Bartley had leased was valued at 5 Pounds and 19 Shillings. His house was valued at 5 Shillings. The total value for his lease was 6 Pounds and 4 Shillings. He would have paid a percentage of the value of his lease toward the tax.

    Patrick Tully Sen. and Jun.. leased land, a house, and one cottage each.

    See Griffiths Valuation for Cornacarta at: https://rebrand.ly/oygtym5

    You’ll see that Patrick Tully Sen., Bartley Tully, and Patrick Tully Jun. are the last three occupiers recorded in Cornacarta at Map Reference 24 a,d,b, c, and e. The number and letters refer to locations on a map that accompanied Griffiths Valuation showing where their property was located in Cornacarta. These three Tullys leased more land than any other occupiers in Cornacarta, and the Griffiths Valuation Map for Map Reference 24, should appear extensive, compared to other lot numbers in Cornacarta

    You’ll also see Patrick Tully Sr. recorded at Map Reference 23, where he leased a little over an acre of land. An Occupier named John Tully leased a house and land at Map Reference 21, while at Map reference 20 a,b, Patrick Mullowny had leased land, a house, an office, and one cottage.

    An office in Griffiths Valuation can refer to a barn, stable, blacksmith shop, piggery, etc.

    The next link will take you to the Griffiths Valuation Map for Cornacarta: https://rebrand.ly/ptxi2ut

    Map Reference 24 shows a large amount of acreage from the middle to the southern portion of the townland. The houses that Bartley Tully, Patrick Tully Sen., and Patrick Tully Jun. had leased were located in this portion of the land, which they farmed in common.

    The subdivisions in Map Reference 24, indicated by the letter a,d,b, c, and e in the Griffiths Valuation record, are not recorded on this map however.

    I next looked for but didn’t find any additional baptism records for the children of Bartley Tully and Mary Mullowney other than the ones you located for Mary, Anne, and Catherine. I also didn’t find the marriage record for Bartley and Mary.

    I looked for Tully civil registration birth records for children of Bartley and Mary, but found none. This search took place at the irishgenealogy.ie website for the years 1864 to 1870.

    Many thanks again for writing Cindy,

    Dave

    davepat

    Sunday 26th Mar 2023, 10:46AM
  • Hello again Dave,

    Your last post to me was very interesting and answered a lot of questions I had.  First of all, I'm glad to know that the civil birth record of 1865 was for Michael (and not William), and with mother Mary (and not Margaret).  Besides the comments you made about the transcription error, I can see a small "t" after "Marg" which I personally think that the transcriber should have noticed!   This Michael Tully (one of my grandfather's brothers) gave his birth year as 1869 on U.S. records but I've noticed that making themselves a few years younger seemed to be a common practice among the Irish immigrants!

    It is really helpful to me that you believe that "Carngard" on Mary Tully's 1852 baptism record (parents Bartly Tully + Mary Mullowney) was really Cornacarta.  A few years back, I ordered the cancelled land valuation records for Cornacarta but I had a hard time making sense of the relationships.  Now I think I have a better idea about it.

    Looking at the Griffith's valuation, I see that it shows only one Bartly Tully (Lot 24b) in Cornacarta.  In the cancelled land valuations of the 1850s, there is a Bartly Sr. and a Bartly (with no Jr after his name).  This is where a lot of my confusion came from.  In contrast, there was a Patrick Sr and a Patrick Jr listed separately (in both Griffiths and on the land valuations).  I now believe that Bartly was not the son of Bartly Sr. but rather, he was another son of Patrick Sr.!  I'm now assuming that this Bartly (presumed son of Pat Sr) was the husband of Mary Mullowney.  I have tried to confirm this with how the land was passed on.  I would like to show you some of this.

    From the cancelled land valuation of the 1850's, with map references:

    • 23:  Patrick Tully Sr   
    • 24a:  Bartly Tully Sr
    • 24b:  Bartly Tully
    • 24c:  Patrick Tully Jr
    • 24d:  Catherine McDonnell (leasing from Pat Tully Sr)
    • 24e:  Mary Concannon (leasing from Pat Tully Jr)

    Since there was no Bartly Sr on the Griffith's valuation, maybe he was no longer in possession of lot 24a when Griffith's was completed (which you said was in 1853).  Bartly Sr is also no longer listed in the land records of the 1860s and Lot 24a had passed to Patrick Tully Sr.  (Maybe this means that Bartly Sr died and had no descendants?) Then, in 1866 or 76?, this land went to Michael Tully (born c.1838) who I think was a younger son of Pat Tully Sr.  This land is still in that family and possessed now by Michael's great-grandson.

    Around 1900, the land of Bartly Tully (24b) went to another Patrick Tully (born c. 1848) who appears to be this Bartly's son.  This Patrick married Mary Ferick in 1885 and his marriage record shows his father's name as "Barthow".  (So, I'm thinking this was an older brother of Mary Tully, bap. 1852, address "Carngard".)  Bartly is still on 24b in 1880's-90's but Patrick is there in 1900-1910's.  This house stayed in the family until Patrick's grandson died a few years ago.  As far as I know, the house is still there but no longer lived in. 

    Going back to Patrick Tully Sr, his lot 23 went to Michael Leonard in 1866.  I thought this Michael was probably married to a Tully but I haven't been able to determine this.  Michael Leonard had a son Bartholomew, baptized 17 Feb 1878 (Sps John Leonard and Kate Tully), address Ballinary (found in roots).  On the nli site, his mother's last name appears to be given as Leonard but the first name is in a very dark area and I can't read anything there.  Roots gave the mother's first name as Bridget but I don't know how they could have seen this! Maybe they have a better image? I was wondering if you could give me your opinion about this.  The record is on the right-hand side, towards the bottom of the page.  https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631987#page/59/mode/1up

    Patrick Tully Jr (in 24c) is my own great-grandfather who married in 1854.  This land passed to his wife, Margaret (née Grogan), in about 1876.  In 1883, the land passed to their daughter Catherine Tully. This land is still in the family and lived on by Catherine's descendants.  Patrick Jr's + Margaret's youngest child was Austin Tully who emigrated to the U.S. in 1892.  Austin was my grandfather.  He met and married my grandmother, Mary Burke (from Loughrea) in Salem, Mass. It seems that no one in the family, that I know of, asked my grandparents any questions about Ireland.  I'm sure my grandfather could have told them who his aunts and uncles were back in Cornacarta which would have made this researching so much easier!  I am fortunate, anyway, that one of my grandfather's sisters stayed in Ireland.  This is Catherine Tully whose descendants are still on the land.  They have been able to give me some information and I've been able to go there to see the old house where my grandfather was born!

    As for the tenants of 24d and 24e:  Mary Concannon's maiden name was Tully.  She and her husband Patrick Concannon and their 2 young children (Kitty born 1841, and Thomas c.1840-42) were living near Claremorris.  They were evicted from their house and came back to Cornacarta (I was told this by my family there). Mary Concannon is on the land records of the 1850s.  (I wish I could know if Mary was an older sister or an aunt of Pat Tully Jr.)  I suspect that Catherine McDonnell was also a Tully but I haven't found any information about her.  I can see in the land records that both Mary and Catherine were living in the "cottages" of Pat Tully Sr and Jr (shown on Griffiths with a value of 2 schillings each!).  Just of interest, son Thomas Concannon continued living in this "cottage" all his life.  He died around 1918.

    Finally, I would like to ask your opinion about a couple of other records.   

    First, there is a civil death record showing a Bartly Tully of "Carrick" who died 13 Sep 1882 at age 60.  Informant was his wife, Honor Tully.  I'm wondering if this was Bartly Sr but, if so, it seems that he would still have been on the land records in the 1860's. ("Carrick" is Carrickacat which borders Cornacarta.  I've been told that the old placename, Ballynarry, not only covered the large plot of land the Tullys occupied in Cornacarta and went over the S-E border into Carrickacat. I've had the impression from various records that some people who called their home Ballynarry, didn't know which of the official townlands they were supposed to be living in!) I found the original civil death record image for this Bartly Tully in the Claremorris registrar's district on the Irishgenealogy website you gave me and it says he was a "landholder" so that doesn't seem to support the idea that he was Bartly Sr.  There is no passing of land to Honor Tully on the Cornacarta land records.  I don't have Carrickacat land records but there weren't any Tullys there in Griffiths. In your experience, would you say that civil records are usually accurate, as to names, etc. ?

    Second, I have never found a birth/baptism record for my grandfather, Austin Tully (born c. 1870/72).  However, there is a baptism record for a "Martin" Tully, on Oct 2, 1870, address Ballynarry.  I have looked at the nli microfilm of this baptism and it clearly says "Martin".  The priest who baptized him was Rev James Waldron and he wrote a couple of paragraphs preceding this baptism entry.  From what I understand he had just arrived in Annagh parish and Sunday, Oct 2 was the first mass he said at the Logboy church. He performed 2 baptisms on Oct 2.  The first one was of "Martin" of Pat Tully & Margt Grogan (address Ballynarry) and the 2nd one was of Michael of father Martin Lyons (address Carrickmacantire).  From what I understand, the priests had to go to the church in Ballyhaunis to write the names in a registry book.  It looks like he registered a lot of baptisms at the same time with the family addresses in different townlands around there.  Am I correct about this system of registering the baptisms at a later date?  If this is so, I was thinking that maybe he made a mistake when he wrote Martin.  I suppose the priest had to make notes about all these baptisms in order to later copy them into the registry book in Ballyhaunis. I suppose this would leave room for error in remembering the names correctly or in reading his own handwriting and finally, transcribing the right name into the registry.  Martin and Austin are somewhat similar.  I also don't know of any Martin's in this Tully family.  Could you give me your opinion about this?  https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631986#page/63/mode/1up  (the baptism is on top of right hand page).

    Finally, I have a question relating to John Tully (map ref. 21).  John married Catherine Hosty in 1847 and one of their sons was named Luke (born 1867).  In 1891, Luke married Ellen Flaherty and Luke's father's name is given as "Patrick John" on the civil marriage record.  Since I know his father was John, I would like to know is if this double name indicates that Luke's grandfather was named Patrick.  (I saw a double name like this given for the father of the groom on another marriage record I looked at. )  If this is true, it would help me to determine if John was another son of Patick Sr. 

    Well, that's a lot of information.  I hope you can help me clear up some of the questions I asked.  Thanks to you, I feel like I've made some real progress in solving some of these family mysteries!

    Many thanks again and best regards,

    Cindy

    CMST

    Wednesday 5th Apr 2023, 08:50PM
  • Hello Cindy,

    I see you like going over old Irish land records as much as I do. I first encountered the “Cancelled Books,” and “Revision Books,” several years ago on a visit to the Valuation Office in Dublin when I was researching my County Limerick ancestors. I also have ancestors from Cavan, Kerry, and Roscommon.

    At present the Valuation Office is digitizing the Revision Books which are schedule to be available online by the end of this year. See the article from the Irish Genealogy Tool Kit website at: https://tinyurl.com/ynscuxeh

    Those are going to be fun to go through when they are available.

    One of the questions you had in your latest reply was for the 17 February 1878 Annagh Catholic Parish baptism of Bartly Leonard. I could barley make out the baptism record from a copy of the original. It looks like whoever photographed this baptism register didn’t provide enough light to cover the whole page, as I couldn’t make decipher any more details than the ones you pointed out, even after lightening the page and darkening the page to see if the register entry was more legible.

    But, based on the baptism register entry for Bartly, I found his civil registration birth record at the irishgenealogy.ie website, which shows he was born in Ballynary, Mayo, on January 19, 1878. His father is Michael Leonard, a “Landholder” living in Ballynary. His mother is Bridget Tully, formerly Leonard. The person who reported the birth to the registrar was Pat Leonard, of Ballynary. He may have been Bridget’s brother, but that’s just a guess. See the birth record, number 292 in the register at: https://tinyurl.com/3k7ztz22

    Unfortunately, I didn’t find the civil registration marriage record or the church marriage record for Michael Tully and Bridget Leonard.

    Concerning the recording of baptism registers, the priest would have had to have known beforehand the name of the child he was baptizing, as well as the names of the child’s parents, and names of the sponsors, or godparents. I suspect priests made a list of the baptisms beforehand, and later would have recorded them in the parish register. At least, this is the way I understand how the process worked.

    One of the questions you had in your last reply is if I thought if civil registration records were accurate as pertaining to names. I’ve found that after going over thousands of birth, marriage, and death records over the past several years from the irishgenealogy.ie website, that they were accurate with names, though I’m sure there were many instances where the registrar made mistakes in recording a first and surname of the person.

    In reference to your grandfather Austin Tully, I spent several hours yesterday going through Irish and American records to see if Austin may have also gone by the name of Martin, and vice versa, but could find no evidence of this. I did find that Austin’s middle name was James, as recorded in the Find A Grave entry, which shows that he was born on 10 August 1875 and died in Salem, Massachusetts on 8 June 1860 at the age of 84 years: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/155780710/austin-james-tully

    The 1900 and 1920 U.S. census records for Salem, Massachusetts, which I’m sure you already have, show that Austin’s middle initial is “J.”

    Cindy, I could find no evidence at all that your grandfather Austin Tully and Martin Tully were the same person. This is the Martin Tully who was baptized in the Annagh Catholic Parish on October 2, 1870. He was the son of Patrick Tully and Margaret Grogan, as you had pointed out.

    In going over Irish birth records, I discovered that the first names Austin was a very popular name, especially in County Mayo. In the civil registration district of Claremorris alone, between 1864 and 1880, there were more than 100 children recorded with the first name of Austin. The birth records for children with the first name of Austin span two pages: https://tinyurl.com/yms3p5n8

    Pertaining to your last question about Luke Tully, son of John Tully and Ellen Flaherty, I can’t say with any certainty that Luke’s grandfather was named Patrick.

    Some families in Ireland as well as in America, followed Irish naming patterns when naming their children. Some families however, did not follow Irish naming patterns.

    In Irish naming patterns the first-born son was named after his father’s father. The first-born daughter was named after her mother’s mother.

    The second-born son was named after his mother’s father and the second-born daughter after her father’s mother.

    The 1901 census for the family of Luke and Ellen Tully in Cornacarta, shows that the name of the first-born son is John. This is an indication that John’s grandfather was also named John. John was Luke’s father, though I can’t account for why Luke gave his father’s name as Patk John in his marriage record. None of the six Tully children in the household is named Patrick.

    See the census transcription from the National Archives of Ireland:
    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Culnacleha/Cornac…

    Make sure to check the box, “Show all information” to view the full census record.

    The first-born daughter in the Tully household is named Kate, which may have been her maternal grandmother’s name. The second-born daughter, who is the youngest in the household, is named Margaret. which, if Irish naming patterns were followed, would be the name of her father’s mother. In this case however, your records shows that Luke’s mother was Catherine Hosty, and not Margaret Hosty.

    Not seeing the age of a child in a census transcription is usually an indication that the child was under a year of age. You’ll notice no age is transcribed for Margaret. But, her age is recorded in a copy of the original 1901 census which you can access at: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001080700/

    The original census shows that Margaret is 3 months old.

    Along the same line with double first names (these are just examples coming up), you’ll sometime see an Occupier in Griffiths Valuation recorded as “John Tully (Patrick),” and “John Tully (Michael)” leasing property in the same townland. This is a convention in Griffiths Valuation called a “Patronymic.”

    The Patrick Tullys may be related but are from different parentage. The father of the first John Tully would be Patrick and the father of the second John Tully would be Michael.

    This patrynomic convention however, does not work the same in Luke’s marriage record showing that his father was “Patk John,” when we know his father was John. In Griffiths Valuation, if John Tully’s father was Patrick, John Tully would have been recorded as “John Tully (Patrick).”

    Another convention you’ll see often in Griffiths Valuation is what’s called an “Agnomen,” which is Latin for “Other Name.” An agnomen makes a distinction between father and son leasing property in the same townland. Example: “(John Tully Senior),” and “(John Tully Junior).”

    An agnomen in Griffiths Valuation could also be “Patrick Tully (Blacksmith).”

    I’ve also seen Griffiths Valuation entries for occupiers differentiated by hair color. For example, “John Tully (Red),” or “John Tully (Black).”

    I’m not sure if I’ve answered your questions Cindy, but many thanks again for writing.

    Dave

    davepat

    Sunday 9th Apr 2023, 02:38AM
  • Hi Dave,

    Thank you very much for your reply and for trying to answer my questions!  I especially appreciate the time you spent looking for records of my grandfather, Austin J Tully.  I'm sorry it took so much time!!  I hope you don't mind me asking a couple more questions, some relating to clarifying what you wrote in this last post.

    About my grandfather, the earliest records of my grandfather in the U.S. put his birth in 1872 (according to his given age at his 1896 marriage and the 1900 census).  After that, his birth year begins to vary between 1872 and 1875 until 1875 becomes the predominant date.  His tombstone reflects the later date.  This explains why I'm hesitant to accept the 1875 birth year.  It would help if I knew what happened to this Martin Tully, baptized in 1870.  I have found no death records for him and he was never spoken of in the family as another sibling . My grandfather spoke of his oldest brother, Owen (born 1856) who stayed in England (after doing seasonal work there with his father) when Austin was a baby and never came home again.  Three of his other older siblings (Ellen, Patrick and Michael) immigrated to Salem a couple of years before Austin and they all continued to see each other frequently there.  I would really appreciate it if you had luck finding a death record for Martin.  If there is one, I could put away the idea that this was really my grandfather! 

    About Bartholomew Leonard, the baptism record I found (on roots but which I can't read in the nli microfilm) shows his parents as Michael Leonard and "Bridget "(?) née ?, baptized Feb 17, 1878, Ballynarry (sps. John Leonard and Kate Tully).  Since you said that you couldn't read it either, I'm wondering if there's another way to see this film or the original record.  Are these records in Dublin? Or are the original church records still in the churches?  I'm not planning a trip to Ireland at the time being but I hope to before too long!

    Also, I was hoping you might have some insights about the 2 Bartlys (Bartly Sr and Bartly) on the land records, but only one Bartly on Griffiths (explained in my last post). I thought the Bartly (with no suffix) would be the one married to Mary Mullowney who we discussed before.  But then, how can this fit in with the Bartly death record of 1882 (wife Honor) (also explained in my last post). If you have an idea about it, I would be very grateful.

     I happened to see a mysterious marriage record in the Annagh nli films (p.73, top left) in Oct 1856 between Patt Hosty + "Kate McD__?__ or Tully widow". I subsequently found this record on FMP (the name was transcribed as McDonelan) but it didn't mention the "Tully widow".  I was thinking the name would more likely be McDonnell and I'm particularly interested in the "Tully widow" part. Does this mean that Kate was a Tully before marrying a McDonelan and that she was a widow when she married Patt Hosty?  I haven't found this record on irishgenealogy.  I would very much appreciate your opinion about this!

    Finally, here is the reason I asked you about the accuracy of the civil records.  In my last post, I mentioned a Thomas Concannon (born c. 1840-42, son of Mary Tully Concannon).  He continued living on a small piece of land in Cornacarta (leasing from Catherine Tully) all his life.  There is an old family note saying he died in 1918.  He can be seen in the 1901 and 1911 censuses as being single and his occupation was musician.  When I looked for him in the civil records, I found a reported death of Thomas Concannon in 1920, age 80, address Cornacarta.  However, this record says he was a widower and a farmer.  The informant's name is Edward Delaney, address given as Cornacarta, Logboy.  As far as I know, there wasn't an Edward Delaney living in Cornacarta.  However, there was one living in nearby Ballybaun (1911) and also a Thomas Concannon (age 50 in 1911) living in Ballybaun (married and a farmer).  But this Ballybaun Thomas' age and address are not the same as in the death record.  So, I was thinking that since Tom Concannon (musician) had no close relatives left in Cornacarta, maybe nobody made an effort to report his death accurately when it happened.  Or this is perhaps a late registration with inaccurate information in it?  Again, I'm hoping you can give me your opinion about this!

    I didn't know about the land "revision records" being digitalized.  I wasn't sure, after reading the article you sent, if these are the same as the "cancelled land valuations" or something different.  I will definitely be looking forward to seeing them when they come on line! 

    You have provided me with a lot of very helpful genealogic searching information which I'm very grateful for.  Míle buíochas leat.

    Cindy

    CMST

    Tuesday 11th Apr 2023, 08:53PM
  • Hi Cindy,

    I was looking over your post, and not sure if it is of interest to you, but there are still Maloney family living in Clougher. Some of the houses in the houses in the village of Clougher lower are also sometimes referred to locally as being in Lowberry, because of their proximity to Lowberry crossroads.

    Caren.

    Roscar

    Wednesday 6th Dec 2023, 11:00PM

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