Searching for John Patrick O'Gorman born 1899

Colleen:

Welcome to Ireland Reaching Out!

Do you have names for any siblings? I looked for Patrick and his family in the Thurles area in the 1901 and 1911 censuses and did not see a likely family.

Roger McDonnell

Thank you so very much Mr. McDonnell for your response.  

I have no other information.  I just recently located the copy of the marriage license for he and my grandmother.  On that, he listed his parents names as John O'Gorman and Margaret Dunne from Thurles.  

I have been unable to locate a John Patrick anywhere.

On findmypast.com I have found a Margaret and John O'Gorman that would be about his parents age.  They lived in Colnmel East Urban, Tipperary at the 1911 Census.  I also found a John O'Gorman born in about 1875 in Thurles.  

Does any of that help me?

I am so very grateful Mr. McDonnell.

Colleen O'Gorman

Colleen:

I think I have unraveled your family. They lived in Ballylanigan (Pennefather) townland in Kilvemnon civil parish which is in South Tipperary on the border with Co. Kilkenny.

John Gorman married Margaret Dunne in April 1891. John was from the aforementioned townland and Margaret was from Glengall townland in the same parish. They had a daughter Mary around 1892-1893. Margaret died in the fourth quarter of 1893 possibly during childbirth or sometime later. John then married Alice Leahy in the summer of 1901 and they had John Patrick around 1902.

Below are the 1901 and 1911 census records for the family. Also the transcription of the 1891 marriage, plus the 1901 marriage and the 1893 death record. You can get copies of the civil records from the General Register Office for four euros each. Let me know if you want to get copies.

Roger McDonnell

Date of Marriage:30-Apr-1891Parish / District:BALLINGARRY
County:Co. Tipperary
Husband
JohnGorman Address Ballylangan
MargaretDunneAddress: Glengall
Husband's Father
Name:JohnGorman
Wife's Father ThadeusDunne

First name(s)JohnLast nameGormanRegistration year1901Registered Quarter/YearJul - Sep 1901Registration districtCallanVolume4Page213County-MarriageFinder™John Gorman married one of these people
Kate Shea, Mary M'Carthy, Kate Ryan, Alice Leahy

First name(s)MargaretLast nameGormanBirth year1860Age at death33Registered year1893Registered quarter/yearOct - Dec 1893Registration districtCallanVolume4Page343

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Kilvemnon/Ba…

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Kilvemnon/Ba…

Mr. McDonnell,

I am rather confused.  My John Patrick named his parents as John and Margaret on the application he completed to marry my grandmother in 1930.  I don't have it in front of my at this moment but it is possible he stated that he was the age that would have made him born in 1901 or 2.  I will check on this "fact" but the Margaret/Alice issue is suprising.  

Margaret apprently died well before John Patrick's birth, beleived to be sometime between 1899 and 1902.  

I know records are not always 100% accurate so I will continue my efforts.  Any thoughts, knowledge or suggestions from you, are certainly most appreciated.

Colleen O'Gorman

Colleen:

I can't explain why he showed  John and Margaret in 1930 instead of John and Alice. Below is a transcription of the 1902 civil birth record for John which ties to the age 8 in the 1911 census. I also searched on Roots Ireland for 1897-1907 and there were no other John O'Gormans. There were two John Gormans but the mother was not Margaret Dunne.

Roger

Name:John O'GormanDate of Birth:20-Dec-1902
Registration Date:30-Dec-1902Address:BallylanganParish/District:MULLINAHONEGender:MaleCountyCo. Tipperary
Denomination:Civil Parish
Father:John O'GormanMother:Alice LeahyOccupation:Farmer
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1:Alice Power

Roger,

Any chance the parrish would have records?  marriage, christening, burieal?

C

Colleen:

Parishes would have baptismal and marriage records and possibly burial records. If you are talking about post-1900, you would have to contact the church directly.

Roots Ireland which is a subscription site has church record until 1880 but civil records until 1921. I also have a subscription to FindMyPast which has civil index records until 1958.

By the way, I checked Google Maps and Ballylanigan is about 34 kilometers from Thurles. Emigrants usually indicated they were from the next biggest twon rather than the specific townland.

Roger

Roger,

I recently obtained a copy of John Patrick O'Gorman's US Draft Registration card dated February 16, 1942.  He listed his birthdate as October 5, 1897 but nothing more than Ireland as his birthplace and no parental information.  However, included in the document is a description of him and goodness gracious, it's my dad!  That is except the "two parallel scars - right side of forehead and bullet wounds - left shoulder & hip."  !!!!!!  I am getting more convinced that he was at sometime in the military or IRA (leaning this direction).  

Also recently, I found the Irish Army Census search site and found a number of Gorman's and O'Gormans from Tipperary.  None list a father or mother I can connect.  I believe this is the regular military, not the IRA, correct?

This is such a frustrating search.  Who was this man?  Where did he go after 1942?  Are there accessable records regarding ships that came from the US into Ireland between 1925 and 1945?  

I understand you deal with church records, so I will try to limit my questions to related issues.  What about a death record for this man?  We believe he frequently traveled back to Ireland but in 1942 or shortly after, never returned.  

Thank you for your assistance.

Colleen O'Gorman

Hi Colleen!

www.irishgenealogy.ie is a free site and they have civil death record images up to 1965. So if your John was in Ireland when he died and his death was registered, you should be able to find the record. Let me know if you have further questions,.

Roger

Hi Colleen,  The John Gorman born 1875 in Thurles that you mention at the beginning of this thread is my great grandfather. He moved to Manchester, England in the late 1890's to get work on the railways. He married in 1903 and he had five children with his wife Eliza. 4 boys and 1 girl.

The eldest boy John (Jack) Gorman born 1904 disappeared in the 1920's. He often talked of running away to join the Canadian Mounted Police, but they never had a constable my that name. 

Also he used to spend a lot of time hanging around the Salford Docks on the Manchester Ship Canal. Some suggest he may have been gang pressed to join a ships crew. The family never heard from him again. All four boys were champion boxers.

In the early 1920's the family moved to Thurles for a few years where John b1875 was a Publican for a few years before returning back to Manchester.

I understand you have done the DNA testing and linked with my cousin Michael Urhegyi.

Andrew