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Robert Burleigh Moore father William

Hi,

Robert (~1832-5 Apr 1895) sailed from Co Tyrone to South Australia on the ship "Lismoyne" in 1855, arriving 23/8/1855. I am after his mother and other ancestor information. His descendant Effie Elizabeth Moore was my grandmother.

Regards,

 

Peter

 

 

Peter Copland

Tuesday 4th December 2018, 09:06AM

Message Board Replies

  • Moore is a very common surname in Ireland, and so very hard to research if you don’t know exactly where the family originated. The 1901 Irish census is the oldest complete census in Ireland. There were 684 Moores in Co. Tyrone, 34 of whom were named Robert and 49 William. The names would have been even more common in the mid 1800s as the population was considerably greater then. (It was 8 million in 1841 and it’s only 6 million today).

    You really need to try and find Robert’s mother’s name (from a marriage or death certificate perhaps) to be sure of tracing the right family. It would also help if you can say what denomination William was. Birth registration didn’t start in Ireland till 1864 and 1845 for marriages. Robert’s baptism and his parent’s marriage are well before those dates and so you need to rely on church records to trace the family. To do that we need the denomination and an approximate area to search.

    There’s 42 parishes in the county, and probably 250 – 300 churches. Not all the churches have records back to the mid 1800s and of those that do, many are not on-line. Only the RC records are fairly comprehensively on-line. For all other denominations it’s very patchy. A lot have been copied and are in PRONI in Belfast, but there are some small churches where the Minister still has the only copy of the records. No-one has copied them at all, and the only way of checking them is to contact him/her. Searching all the various church records for Tyrone is a mammoth task. But even then, there’s no getting away from the fact that the Church of Ireland lost a significant portion of its records in the 1922 fire, and that other denominations didn’t always keep records, or if they did, they have been lost or damaged.

    The only hint I can give you comes from the middle name Burleigh. That’s not a common name in Tyrone. However baptism records for the 1830s rarely contained middle names and so you can’t rely on finding that. He was probably baptised as plain Robert Moore. Having said that, Burleigh is probably a name connected with the family. (Presbyterians sometimes used the mother’s maiden name as a middle name for one or more children). There’s just 1 Burleigh family in Tyrone in the 1901 census. They were a family with a drapers shop in Dungannon and were Methodists. However I can’t find any baptisms or deaths for that family in the Dungannon area 1864 – 1901, and wonder if they had moved there from somewhere else. The surname is much more common in the adjacent county of Fermanagh, and I wonder if they originated there (though Tyrone is given as their birthplace in the census).

    Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree DNA reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results to them for no fee.

    The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA project and can offer FTDNA testing kits at a reduced price.  http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).

    Elwyn

    Tuesday 4th December 2018, 09:50AM
  • Hi Elwyn,

    I can, at this time, add that Robert is recorded as Church of England on the ship coming out to South Australia. That should help if he was indeed of that branch. His son, Alfred Benjamin Moore is buried in the Old Meadows Wesleyan Cemetery. So, he could have been Wesleyan (The ship's listing at that time only had two choices 'C' or 'E').

    Another line is that someone related would see the posting and be able to add more details that I don't know of. Unfortunately, very little information has been passed down in my family of the Moores as such, it was just not talked about. So, as for finding out Robert's mother that is highly improbable from here as only the father was recorded on the marriage certificate and his mother was not present for the marriage, so she could not have been a witness. On DNA, I myself have taken all tests available from Familytreedna but I am most probably not of the same branch as Robert Moore's line. Hopefully, one day, one of the Moores will get tested fully enough to find the family.

    Peter

    PS. I'm on the Copeland, R1a and Irish project sites of Familytreedna (300095)

    Peter Copland

    Tuesday 4th December 2018, 10:11PM
  • Hello Peter,

    There are a few discrepancies that invite checking.

    SA Archives provides online a high quality scan of the extant passenger lists. For your year 1855, select Lismoyne.  Read all pages with care, and note the 'religious affiliation' annotation, in this document, does include S, M & D, as well as the E for C-of-E and the more frequent C for Roman Catholic; Scottish Baptist(?), Methodist(?) and Dissenter. Where the Presbyterians fit is unclear. How many distinct religions existed?!  Be mindful of the estimate that 25% of passengers lists to S.A. are unaccounted, so you ancestor's passenger list could be unaccounted.

    Note, also there was a single 22 year old housemaid, Sarah Moore, from Co. Tyrone. This passenger may be a sister to "Robt", 20 years of age; no other 'Moore' on the vessel, and same county. This information permits approximation of 1833 +/- 1 birth year for Sarah, and 1835 +/- 1 for Robt. Any marriage found for a Sarah Moore, born around 1833 could suggest the name of the parents, or at least lead to S.A. cousins! 

    Given in your post was death,1895 for Robt. Assuming he remained in South Australia, there is just one Robert Moore death record for S.A. for that year. This gentleman resided at Meadows in the Strathalbyn District, and was aged 77 years; the calculated date of birth is 1818. I feel this cannot be your Robt.

    Working backwards from Effie Elizabeth: South Australian BDM holds records for 1921 marriage Methodist Church @Meadows, John Johnson to Effie Elizabeth MOORE, born 1899 to Isabella WATSON & Alfred Benjamin MOORE, born 1868 @Meadows to Mary Ann HALLOMBY & Robert MOORE, Ref: S.A. 71/470; died 1921 interred Meadows Cemetery. There is no William for father, but Robert. I cannot find a S.A. marriage for Moore-Hallomby, suggesting married elsewhere.

    Could your Robt. have gone to the Victorian Goldfields? I cannot locate any Robert Burleigh MOORE, nor (Burley) in S.A. BDM.  There is a Robert Waters MOORE, but he was born c. 1820.  Accepting alternative spelling MUIR, finds a Robert MUIR marriage near Penola, but his father was also a Robert. Another alternative spelling was MURRAY, but he was Roman Catholic. Where did you find the 2nd christian name of Burleigh?

    Hope this helps a bit

     

    Eire2Go

    Wednesday 5th December 2018, 02:18PM
  • I meant too say no BDM in the target date range, but a later birth & marriage:

    On 6 July 1892 Robert Burley MOORE, age 25 years, married Mary Ellen Georgina STENSON,  at Primitive Methodist Church, Rosewater, PT. Ade. District, age 23 years. Fathers: Robert MOORE & John STENSON.

    Candidates for the groom are 3 Robert MOORES born 1867 +/-2 years: 

    Robert b. 1867 at Meadows, parents Robert & Mary Ann HOLLOMBY

    Robert Andrew b. 1867 at Adelaide, parents Joseph Andrew and Ann Jessie KELLY

    Robert b. 1868 at Wallaroo, parents are William James and Jane KING

    Could this last one be what you're chasing, even though he did not arrive 1855 Lismoyne, nor born c. 1835?

     

    Eire2Go

    Wednesday 5th December 2018, 02:52PM
  • Peter,

    Regarding Robert Moore’s denomination, Church of England and Church of Ireland is the same thing, so if you get around to searching church records in Ireland, Church of Ireland seem the most likely ones to start with.  There’s probably around 60 Church of Ireland churches in Tyrone (some parishes had more than one church).

    Eire2go wonders how Presbyterians were categorized in the shipping lists. Probably as S. The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian, and it’s the predominant denomination in Scotland.  I’d guess that the S category were Presbyterians. Not sure what they categorised a Presbyterian from Ireland (and there were plenty of them). Dissenter perhaps.

     

    Elwyn

    Wednesday 5th December 2018, 06:21PM
  • Hi Elwyn,

    Did you also look at the link I gave to the 1855 passenger list? It's nice to see the original document free online, with all it's marks and notes. The religious denomination does not appear on every passenger list, and there are no column headers to guide us.  Prior to this vessel, I'd seen only C & E and figured "C for Catholic", and thus "E for other-than RC", so I wanted to learn more. After many phone calls to genealogy centres' experts in Australia, I was none the wiser. Disappointing!  Finally, a returned phone message mentioning 'we found a book (to do with emigration process) that details ..... etc'. 

    And yes, I believe you are correct, the 'S' would be Scottish Presbyterian. Where to place the Baptists is still open in this discussion. I will endeavour to find the book describing the religious affiliation, scan and email copy to XO, if you like?

    Note Primitive Methodist Church where the target married. My Cornish ancestors into South Aus. were "PM". One of the PM Ministers, a charismatic man, broke away and joined another church as a altogether! In the following decades, the PM splintered into other groups - I seem to recall Christian Bible Studies.  The 'genealogy' of religions would be a study in its own right. I'm sure there are research studies somewhere.

    The documents I like most are survivors of the 1766 Religions Census. The linked document offers this explanation for Dissenters:

    Sometimes the term “Protestant” is further broken down into members of the Established Church and Protestant “Dissenters” and occasionally details are given for smaller denominations e.g. Quakers and Anabaptists.

     

    Regards,

     

    Eire2Go

    Wednesday 5th December 2018, 10:04PM
  • Eire2Go,

    I live in Co. Antrim. We are awash here with minor denominations. As a researcher, I have had to try and get my head around all the sub-divisions and schisms, because otherwise you cannot give useful advice on where to search for the right church records.

    You commented on how many denominations there were/are. In addition to the main denominations ie Roman Catholic, Church of Ireland & Presbyterian, we have Reformed Presbyterian (aka Covenanters), Non Subscribing Presbyterian (aka Unitarian), United Presbyterians, Brethren (aka Plymouth Brethren), Quaker, Moravian, Huguenot, Methodist, Primitive Methodist, Primitive Wesleyan Methodist, Independent Methodist, Baptist, Congregationalist and Jews. We do enjoy religion in Ireland.

    I’d be a liar if I said I could fully explain all their precise philosophies, dogma and reasons for the various schisms but I have done some basic research. For the Methodists, for example, I went to the historian at Methodist Historical Society in Belfast. Their historian is a retired Methodist Minister. So that’s the source of my information about that denomination.

    Scotland was essentially RC till the Reformation.  Then in the mid 1500s John Knox established the Presbyterian Church and persuaded the majority of the population to switch to it. (Like nearly every other denomination it later had various splits and reunifications. You’d need a PHD to follow them all). That left Scotland as a largely Presbyterian country, though with significant numbers of other denominations too. But for a Scottish traveller to Oz, I’d generally interpret S on a passenger list as Presbyterian.

    So in Scotland by the 1600s, Presbyterian was the mainstream denomination, but in Ireland it was overall numerically a minor denomination.  The state denomination was Church of Ireland (even though 80% of the population were other denominations). RC were described in censuses as “Papist” and Presbyterians and other minor Protestant denominations were described as “Dissenters.” So those are the terms that you often see in travel and other records.

    (If you want to chat further, you can e-mail me on Ahoghill@irelandxo.com as this is a bit away from Peter’s family and he may not be terribly interested).

    Elwyn

    Thursday 6th December 2018, 01:15AM
  • Thank you Elwyn for your expert knowledge of religious affiliation, which can be a sieve for family history research.

    Another tip to share is that, with poverty and disenfranchisement becoming heavy burdens, 'secure' employment in policing and 'military' service was an option, providing the applicant was of the acceptible faith. Hence, changing religion was a matter of survival. Researchers today should be mindful of that.

    I now have the definitive word on the lettering on passenger lists into South Australia, at least.  Reproduced verbatim the below list, from State Library of South Australia with date range 1847 - 1886, is of general interest:

    Religious Denominations

    E.   Church of England

    C.   Catholic

    D.   Dissenter

    S.   Scots? (Presbyterian)

    F.    Free Mason

    M.   Methodist

    P.    Presbyterian

    W.   Wesleyan

    B.    Baptists

    I.    Independent

     

    Regards

     

    Eire2Go

    Friday 7th December 2018, 03:41AM
  • Hi Peter here,

    I have prepared a basic picture of Robert Moore's marriage and children from the sources available to those in South Australia with some family knowledge of course. The results are attached as a PDF file. You will notice that Census data is not used. We only have one conducted in 1841. Why we do not continue the open census I don't know. We are lucky here as quite a few records regarding ships passengers have not make it into the present day. If you are lucky the person was under the patronage of a sponsor in the colony. This gives you more information about the person of interest.

     

    Regards,

    Peter

     

    Peter Copland

    Friday 7th December 2018, 04:36PM

    Attached Files

  •  

    My Ggrandfather was a John Moore 1861(abt) to 1930.  He lived in both Tyrone and Donegal. He married a Mary Ann Stewart and they had 4 children. Their last child was named Robert but he died in infancy.  

    I have nor more information regarding his parents etc except his father was named John Moore!  His daughter Marth married and travelled to New Zealand in 1925..

    I have taken a DNA test but it is with Ancestry. So far I have had no luck in finding any relatives!  Who is your dna test with?

    Cheers Carol Murphy NZ

     

    Carol Murphy

    Friday 7th December 2018, 08:56PM
  • Carol,

    Your John Moore was born in Co.  Derry, according to the 1901 census. He looks to have had 5 children, rather than 4:

    John Moore 29.12.1883

    Martha Moore 2.10.1885

    Mary Moore 30.7.1887

    Robert Moore 29.4.1889

    Caroline Stewart Moore 17.11.1890 (at Carricklee).

    You can view those births on the irishgenealogy site. John’s wife Mary died 4.3.1892 at Carricklee. Family in 1901:

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban_No__1/Pennyburn/1535528/

    Your ancestor Martha, with her husband, and her sister Caroline in 1911:

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban__1_/Northland_Avenue/601399/

     

    Elwyn

    Friday 7th December 2018, 11:26PM
  • Hi Carol,

    I've tested both the Female and Male sides of my DNA to as far as the testing is available. I did mine through Familytreedna. If you go to the R1a project site https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1a/activity-feed you'll see my YDNA (User 300095), On the female side, I'm on the 'T2' project site https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/t2/activity-feed.

    There is also another site that I and others belong too and that is GEDmatch (https://www.gedmatch.com). I'm user T553289 on there. Its free and provides matching for the autosomic part as well.

    There is another path as well and that is to upload your results to Familytreedna for a more direct comparison.

    One word of cauton, sometimes the DNA link is so very small that a match will not show . I have a cousin that I can trace the connection out on paper, but she does not show up on my matches. The DNA combination come up with very small segments in common, putting the match below the threshhold of acceptability.

    Hope to see you as a match.

    Peter

    Peter Copland

    Friday 7th December 2018, 11:45PM
  •  

    Thanks so much Peter.  I will try those sites and see hat comes of them!  You never know!

    Cheers Carol

    Carol Murphy

    Carol Murphy

    Sunday 9th December 2018, 01:31AM
  • Hello Peter,

    In an early email I mentioned:

    On 6 July 1892 Robert Burley MOORE, age 25 years, married Mary Ellen Georgina STENSON,  at Primitive Methodist Church, Rosewater, PT. Ade. District, age 23 years. Fathers: Robert MOORE & John STENSON.  This record is SA BDM sourced, and spelling of "Burley" is highly significant and well known to me. 

    I have also studied the .pdf account of someone's research who refers to someone else's view of Ancestry Library Edition (** VH) which I think could be Victor Harbour. Unfortunately the researchers overlooked the relevance of Burley, referred to BISA and Jaunay's transcription of extant passengers lists.

    Robert BURLEY, the pioneer of Meadows, born 1805 Oxted arrived 1838 on 'Rajasthan'. His sister, Elizabeth born 1791, died as Mrs Hollomby in 1842, her widower died 1848. Uncle Robert Burley, brought the 4 Hollamby children to S.A. in 4 separate sea journeys. In 1859 a Hollomby girl married a Robert Moor(e), of age 27 years, who gave his father as William.

    Knowing the origin of Robert Moor(e) is difficult without additional information, such as court, electoral, land title or immigration records, printed Obituaries or other newspaper items. All I found in Trove was a "Robert Moore" mentioned in an inquest of the death of a horseman after leaving a pub at Kangarilla.

    Good quality scans of all pages of extant shipping records are available online (S.A. Archives) and can show additional markups on the pages. This primary source is superior to Jaunay's transciption of SAGHS' documents. BISA is a very old publication, compiled from a variety of sources, anecdotes and personal interpretations: at best it is tertiary 'evidence'. Each year more information appears from pre-existing sources which as primary or secondary take precedence over BISA. There are known cases where BISA is wrong.

    The main issue we all face is loss of passenger lists. With about 25% of passenger lists missing, the probability of identifying the right Robert Moore is 75%, which is statistically very poor.

    The brickwall created is the conflict in ages for the same man:

    1855 age 20 years ==> Birth 1835 (+/-1 yr)

    1859 age 27 years ==> Birth 1832 (+/-1 yr)

    1895 age 77 years ==> Birth 1818 (+/-1 yr)

    Without additional information about the Robert Moore who married a niece of Robert BURLEY, founder of Meadows S.A., it's very difficult to pinpoint him. He may have come by sea from Tas, Melb or Perth, or NSW overland or even Qld, or he may have arrived from the U.K., Scotland, Wales. Clearly DNA-matches are the best research tool, keep you fingers crossed.

    On the good news side, I can introduce you to a Burley relative, being a direct descendant of Robert BURLEY, who has the entire Burley Family from Oxted very well researched back to 1600s, and quickly responded to me "Yes, one of ours. I'd like to talk".  Similarly, a contact name/email of a HOLLOMBY expert is available with extensive history. Both are in S.A. and/or Vic.  Should you wish me to pass your contact detail, you can publish on this post, or request IrelandXO to forward to me.

     

     

    Eire2Go

    Sunday 9th December 2018, 04:00AM