Lawlor (Holden) Genealogy - Dublin 1900

Catholic Records for most of the parishes in the city are on the free IrishGenealogy website , a few cut-off before 1896. The NLI film images cover additional parishes, but many of these cut off around 1880.

Grant's Row is in St. Peter's Civil parish and close to Merrion Square, nearest Catholic parish Churches at the time would probably be St. Mary's Haddington Road and St. Andrew's Westland Row. The IrishGenealogy website has baptisms for St. Andrew's up to 1906, and St. Mary's, Haddington Road up to 1907.

p.s. I dont think the 81/70 is a reference to a street number - it's only a short street with 23 houses (Thom's 1910).

A search for possible children using the two surnames on IrishGenealogy with a date range of 1892 to 1910 shows two siblings, one in each of the two parishes I mentioned - Michael Lawlor 1898 in Holles St. Hosp., and John Joseph  bapt. 21 March 1900 , with address at Fleming's place, parents names are John & Elizabeth. No sign that I could find of any others...

EDIT : I checked the NLI fims - baptisms for Haddington Road cover up to 1907, the St. Andrew's baptisms for the 1890s appear to be split between several overlapping registers - latest `date covered seems to be about 1899.

Many thanks for the response it's greatly appreciated

I've checked the film images back to 1891 and forward for a few years past 1895 for both St Mary's and St Andrews but with no matches.

I also looked at St Kevin's Harrington St and found a Bridget Lawlor E.166 in the typed section though I'm not entirely sure what that means and have been unable to cross ref - can you advise?

I have a copy of the marriage cert for John and Eliza if that might give any clues and also a birth cert for John Joseph ( you mentioned above) at 5 Fleming place in 1900.

Kindest regards

Adrian

do you have a link for that E 166 reference you found ?

The only Bridget Lawlor/Lalor baptism that shows up for me on an index search of Harrington Street is one in 1897 to Joseph Lawlor and Mary Jane Edwards.

p.s was that on the IrishGenealogy or NLI website ?

I found similar entries here, in one of the index sections - the letter for this type of indexing would normally be the register volume , and the number the page...

had a look through the images - and there are a few page numbers written in - but am beginning to think that the number mentioned in the index , the 166 in this case reference to the baptism count for the years. This doesn appear for every part of teh register... he starts 1st Jan at 1 and increments up to the end of December - I had a look at a few of the 166s for the 1890s but didn't come across any Lawlors...

The entry I found is here (nli)

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633732#page/499/mode/1up

thanks - will have a look and see if I can figure out his indexing system - I've a suspicion that this entry may relate to the Lawlor/Edward baptism...

think I've figured this out, although dont yet see where the page numbers are... maybe just counted from the start page

on the same index page as that Bridget Lawlor entry there are two Daniel Lennon entries, both with an E prefix, the same as Bridget, and number 55 and 171. An index search of the Irish Genealogy website of this parish for Daniel Lennon baptisms shows two matches - one on the 28th June 1892  the second on the 13th October 1896. The page and entry numbers are shown for each in the lower section, the first is page 55, and the second page 171 - which match the two index entries. If you then view the register image for the Daniel baptised 1896, and click the 'previous' link 5 times to skip back from page 171 to page 166 - you end up here - the 7th entry is for a Bridget Lawlor, unfortunatly not the one you are looking for though....

Thanks for this - I'm starting to consider the prospect that there are unfortunately no records for Bridget. Seems unusual, but wondered if you had come across this before?

I've come across missing civil records including my own maternal grandmother, up to the 1920s at least - some probably just never got around to registering, in other cases maybe paperwork went astray...

I think the slightly disorganised records for St. Andrew's is probably the issue with the missing baptism in this case - they were a very busy parish, with several priests carrying out baptisms and marriages, and have several overlapping registers, and some with out of sequence entries. I've heard of cases for other parishes where priests and curates made notes during, or soon after, the ceremonies in notebooks or sometimes scraps of paper, and planned to transcribe the details into the register later...  a note could then have been lost or mislaid, or just forgotten about when preoccupied with the next task.

At least in this case you know details of some siblings and can establish a link that way.

Thanks can you help me dicipher the address at time of marriage for John Lawlor

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_re…

I read Elizabeth Brophy as at Little Fitzwilliam street?

Thanks

Hello,

I do believe the the name is Old Leastown Street, Which is on the North side of Co Dublin, Balrothery.Registry district of Kilsallaghan,Parish of Westpalstown. My hobby is old street names and Maps of Dublin City and County.

You can find theses places in the 1901 1911 Census also Griffiths Valuation.

Kind regards,

Kaye.

I believe it's 2 Old Lisburn Street - but I cheated just a little...  the writing on the civil marriage is messy, the first word looks like it has 4 letters, the second word looks like it starts with Lis... so to cross check I had a look at the church marriage (2nd last entry on the page), and luckily the priest, a J. Brady has nice neat handwriting and reasonably clear 2 Lisburn St. See the c1890 OSI Map

Thom's 1894 lists a Lisburn Street, and a New Lisburn streets, so think the civil registrar used 'Old Lisburn street' was to differentiate between the two. Both are 'northside' so across the Liffey from the church.  The Old & New streets were adjacent with Old Lisburn Street running between Coleraine Street and Lurgan Street, and New Lisburn street continuing to the west as far as Upper Church Street. Just the 'Old' Section of the street remains today.

The 1894 listing for Old Lisburn Street shows the following.

1. North City Dispensary
2 to 5 tenements
6-8 Linen Hall Barracks

the listing for New Lisburn Street for ref.

1. M. McGrane, undertaker , hearse & coach prop.
2 to 4 tenements
... Church Street...
5. Philip Brady, grocer
6. James Dunne, provision dealer

Agree with the bride's addess, although think it'[s place rather than street. There were at least three streets named Fitzwilliam place at the time...

Fitzwilliam place, Fitzwilliam square
Fitzwilliam place, north, Stanhope street
Fitzwilliam place, Fitzwilliam lane

the second one is in the north of the city, so unlikely for a marriage in St. Andrew's. I think the third is the best candidate in this case - it's shown as Little Fitzwilliam place on the c1890 OSI  and also on current maps. Like many small lanes and streets, details for Fitzwilliam Place, Little  are not shown in Thom's Street listings, although it is mentioned in the street index.

EDIT : apologies Kaye for overlapping - didn't see your post...

Hi - thanks for all the help so far you have been brilliant

I have finally found the birth record for my grandmother  (Bridget Teresa )

Unnamed female born to John and Elizabeth (Lizzie) Lawlor nee Brophy on 14 Oct 1896. Dates and parents match known info.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_retur…

Record 272

Can anybody help me work this forward to a baptismal certificate- I've had a search of the registers but can't find anything.

I guess if I request a copy of the  birth cert it will show the details described but with no name ?

Kind regards

Adrian

very well done locating that birth! - these are difficult to find when the child is registered without a first name. The birth took place at the Rotunda hospital in Dublin North district so outside the area we were concentrating on.

The image is from the GRO register, and any cert. is just a photocopy or transcript of this - so no first name will be available. A first name is required for a baptism, but the problem is locating that, assuming there is a written record somewhere. From what we have seen there is no sign of it in the parishes near where the family lived. The nearest parish church to the hospital is St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral, so might be worth checking records from there, an even busier parish than St. Andrew's. Records for that parish are on the NLI, IrishGenealogy, Ancestry FMP etc so I think Bridget should have shown up in general searches if recorded there...

Thanks are you able to read the address for the family it seems to be 19 Coleraine? Can't quite make it out - wondered if this might give a clue

I'm not sure what the abbreviation is supposed to be under father residence - but presume it's how he represents 'Street'. The same squiggle appears after some of the other entries on the page and also on places of birth..

It's definitely Coleraine - and the street is right beside Lisburn street..  I'll check for a Thom's street listing for the address when I get home...

No. 19 Coleraine Str. was very close to the junction with Lisburn Street, unfortunately most of the buildings in that section of the street were tenements, so no additional details in the listing :

1 & 2 Christr. Langan, spirit stores
3 Vacant
4 James Shaw, provision dealer
5 - 11 Linen Hall Barracks
......here Lisburn- street intersects .....
12 - 20 Tenements
21 - 24 Tenements
25 & 26 Patk. Kearney, marine stores,
 

Thanks

I spoke to somebody at the pro cathedral - they explained that Coleraine St was not in their parish. I wondered what parish it might have been in? 

Is there an official process for getting a baptismal cert reissued if it's been lost ( and you are unsure of the parish)

Kind regards 

I was thinking St. Mary's Marlborough Street as being nearest to the Hospital, the closest Catholic parish church for the area around Coleraine Street would have been St. Michan, and also close was St. Paul's Arran Quay.

Records for St. MIchan's, North Anne Street are included on the IrishGenealogy website, St. Paul's are not. The St. Michan records on IrishGenealogy cut-off sometime in 1896 - the exact date is not mentioned - Dublin City RC parishes (pdf document). Images of the records for both parishes are on the National Library Website - but these only cover baptisms up 1888 for St. Michan's and St. Paul's to 1882.

There's was no centralized system for registering baptisms, so you do need to know the parish. St. Paul's is no longer a Catholic Parish church, and their records are now held by the St. Michan parish office at Halston St. See the parish information on the Dublin Diocese website , the website for St. Michan's website mentions family history research and certs.

p..s I had a closer look at the St. Michan's baptisms on IrishGenealogy, and it looks as though the 1896 date mentioned is due to a single stray baptism, as far as I can see the actual cut-off for baptisms is around the end of January 1888.

Thanks for the doc, really useful. I've spoken to somebody at St Michans, let's see if anything turns up.

KR Adrian

Very pleased to report - baptism tracked down at Halston St.

Kind Regards

Adrian

Thanks again for all the assistance

excellent news!! - thanks for the update

Shane.

I just located this message board and did a search on Holden and this came up.  I am a Holden living in the US.  What is your connection to Holden. I do have a Lawlor in my tree.  Mary Lawlor married to John Holden. They arrived in the US in 1869.  I found this record of marriage:

Church Marriage Record

Date of Marriage:04-Feb-1869

Parish / District:ATHYCounty:Co. Kildare

Husband Name: JohnHolden  Address: Snugborough  Denomination:Roman Catholic Status: Bachelor (Previously unmarried) Husband's Father Name: Michael Holden  Husband's Mother Name: Esther

Wife Name: MaryLawlor  Address: Ballyroe  Denomination:Roman Catholic  Status:  Spinster (Previously unmarried)  Wife's Father Name:  Michael Lawlor  Wife's Mother Name: Brigid

Witness 1 Name: Thomas Moran Witness 2Name: AnneMoran

Chrissy Holden Masciangelo

Hi, Adrian

If you want to see all the Lawlor (and variant spellings) baptisms in the 6 largest Dublin RC parishes, see https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/eto38v3z3rk18fy5kzta3/Dublin-Baptisms-in-Combined-Parishes-by-LawXXX.xlsx?dl=0&rlkey=8byul2u9fcd2pjush60m3sf4i

Likewise for Holden, see https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yfhec12ake4emgpkxizgd/Dublin-Baptisms-in-Combined-Parishes-by-Holden.xlsx?dl=0&rlkey=dsf94z6iv7cuaoja4oqj5uliy

Don Flinn